#261  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:17 PM
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Tony will not put anymore spring pressure on an engine driven on the street. My engine in High Performance Pontiac has the same springs as yours. My engine will make way more horsepower with more spring too. We estimate close to 900HP, but then it would no longer be a street engine.

Tony relocated the studs to align up with the alternate valve locations which was entirely appropriate. It worked out great. You better spend your time on how you are going to utilize all that RAV power. Just getting control of 1100HP and a 69 Firebird is a task. Ask Langer! You'll have about double.

It will be years before you master 1/2 the power this engine has, if you want rocker shafts that you dont need, do it then on the first rebuild.

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Last edited by NHRASuperStock455SD; 04-13-2012 at 09:29 PM.
  #262  
Old 04-13-2012, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD View Post
Rated? I go by 30 years of racing experience. Tony said he has never had any problems with this style rocker. About 10 of us ran them for years with way more spring pressure. I still have two sets about 30 years old and they are still fine. I didnt go to rocker shafts until we went to 430 on the seat and 1250 open. We ran 330 seat and 800 open with these rockers for years.

I think being silly was the words I used to you in an email when discussing this issue, now you choose to use it to me on a public forum. Nice Ed.
Lynn,

You verbally called me silly among other things before you stopped taking my calls and responding to email.

Regardless of what you, Tony or 10 other racers say, if the customer is not comfortable with a part for one reason or another it should be replaced. They are paying for it right?
Why don’t we ask our fellow racers if they would use a rocker arm rated by the manufacturer at “450lb open” on an engine that needs at least 300lb seat pressure. The mfg. rating is before any clearancing.

I have nothing to hide and I am still willing to work with you to resolve any issues. I would still like to see your RA-V endeavors successful.
I assume you received the pictures I sent.


Last edited by RAIV-Z; 04-13-2012 at 10:17 PM. Reason: typo
  #263  
Old 04-14-2012, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jdw_poncho View Post
Hi Ed
Since you brought it up, did you sign up for drag week? Me and a buddy will be taking our cars this year. He has a mustang so I couldnt let him get away with that so I decided Im taking mine too. I signed up for a easier class but will move my car into the unlimited class when I get there. Now I gotta build a second fuel system, add a seat for a passenger, lights, air filters, etc.! I hoped you signed up and can push the project forward to make it.

BTW, when I got my cam from Butler I called Comp right after my dyno session. My springs checked out at 330lbs seat and they said to use them and dont worry about it. Had I told them 280lbs they said they would have recommended replacing them.

Even though I didnt get past 5100rpm in my dyno pulls I feel pretty confident I was gonna be fine. I'm not a expert but the dyno man thought I was on track as well. I wouldnt call him a expert either but he has a lot more expierence than I do.

Any updates on the chassis?

Jeff
Hi Jeff,

Great talking with you yesterday, post up some pics of your chassis progress. Here are a few pictures of mine from today.
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  #264  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:07 PM
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We tried to accomodate you at every turn(which were many), but many items you asked of us simply werent possible. When having a professional builder like Tony build an engine, you must defer to his intellectual prowess. Rex, Stacy, Phil, Langer all can request anything, but we dont always get exactly what we want. Tony reserves the first right of refusal. It is his shop. Same with the fabricators and the Turbo guys. After explaining these things for hours upon hours, sometimes we must call it a day.

We enjoyed working on your engine and all appreciated it. My advise to you is that when you hire an expert to do a job, please let him do it. We arent perfect, but we are pretty good.

My mom makes bar none the best chocolate cake known to mankind, but Sheila was horrified how much of a ingredient was in the recipe. My kids love it, they dont care how much vanilla and cream cheese!

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Last edited by NHRASuperStock455SD; 04-14-2012 at 07:16 PM.
  #265  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:12 PM
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From another post....
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=695083&page=6


Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD View Post
We all think that Ed's 2200HP is virtually unusable in his car on the street. If I gave him my 455SD it would take him 4 years to hook that engine up in his car at 700HP close to what I do. Now what about 1000HP? Almost unmanagable especially on the street. It will take him years to maximize 2200HP. We are still learning in racing maximizing 700HP.

Lynn,

We’ll never know what the engine is capable of if you don’t return the AllPontiac front and mid-engine plates needed to install it. With zero boost, 660hp is very streetable, remember, the Dominator EFI support 4 separate tunes and boost control, this is why it was chosen over the Holley HP ECU. You have my address, you can ship your 455SD to me and I’ll pull the RA-IV out of my 69 Camaro and race “low 10’s” with your SD engine this year while the 69bird chassis is being upgraded.

Tony “BES” and Joey “IndyCartel” do take my calls and are willing to work professionally with me to resolve issues. Tony has already resolved 2 of them.
You should follow their lead as I’m sure you are aware of SOME of the issue unless you’re still not reading emails I send you.

AGAIN, I’d be more than happy to take this up offline as I’d still like to see your RA-V project successful.

The Following User Says Thank You to RAIV-Z For This Useful Post:
  #266  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RAIV-Z View Post
Hi Jeff,

Great talking with you yesterday, post up some pics of your chassis progress. Here are a few pictures of mine from today.


Looks like they have a good start! It seemed like I was at the stage for what felt like forever. Trying to build that type of cage by yourself and work a full time job will make the project drag on. I'm sure I would have been money ahead to have someone do it for me.

I uploaded some pics in the boost forum, cage is FINALLY DONE!!

I cant remember if I asked you, are you going to Norwalk to spectate if your car isnt done? If so look for my red chevy dually and a blue 69 tempest. I'm bring my GF but not sure how much help she'll be. Ive been trying to talk her into buying some of those really tall boots and a halter top so she can back me up at the lights. LOL, she isnt having any of that right now. I told her thats the way its done but she doesnt believe me.

So, it sounds like your moving on and needing help from a professional engine builder to fix your issues. Was there ever a set of rocker shafts designed for the heads from the beginning? I would have assumed a set of race heads would have had that kind of work done already.

What lifters did you use?

  #267  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jdw_poncho View Post
Looks like they have a good start! It seemed like I was at the stage for what felt like forever. Trying to build that type of cage by yourself and work a full time job will make the project drag on. I'm sure I would have been money ahead to have someone do it for me.

I uploaded some pics in the boost forum, cage is FINALLY DONE!!

I cant remember if I asked you, are you going to Norwalk to spectate if your car isnt done? If so look for my red chevy dually and a blue 69 tempest. I'm bring my GF but not sure how much help she'll be. Ive been trying to talk her into buying some of those really tall boots and a halter top so she can back me up at the lights. LOL, she isnt having any of that right now. I told her thats the way its done but she doesnt believe me.

So, it sounds like your moving on and needing help from a professional engine builder to fix your issues. Was there ever a set of rocker shafts designed for the heads from the beginning? I would have assumed a set of race heads would have had that kind of work done already.

What lifters did you use?
I’ll be going to Norwalk this year whether the car is done or not. I’ll be sure to look for ya. You do still have a few months to work on the GF

I don’t believe Lynn got around to designing guide plates or a rocker shaft for V heads with alternate intake valve placement yet, he can comment if he'd like. I have calls into a few places to see what they can do about a rocker shaft. The lifters are Crower 66260-16 Full Body Mechanical Roller Lifters (.842" dia. / .750" Bearing) which were modified for better oiling. Studs with a girdle and better rockers would be able to handle the spring pressure with minor work, still contemplating my options. The project is still moving forward and I really appreciate the support from you guys that still take my calls.

Ed

  #268  
Old 04-17-2012, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIV-Z View Post
From another post....
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=695083&page=6





Lynn,

We’ll never know what the engine is capable of if you don’t return the AllPontiac front and mid-engine plates needed to install it. With zero boost, 660hp is very streetable, remember, the Dominator EFI support 4 separate tunes and boost control, this is why it was chosen over the Holley HP ECU. You have my address, you can ship your 455SD to me and I’ll pull the RA-IV out of my 69 Camaro and race “low 10’s” with your SD engine this year while the 69bird chassis is being upgraded.

Tony “BES” and Joey “IndyCartel” do take my calls and are willing to work professionally with me to resolve issues. Tony has already resolved 2 of them.
You should follow their lead as I’m sure you are aware of SOME of the issue unless you’re still not reading emails I send you.

AGAIN, I’d be more than happy to take this up offline as I’d still like to see your RA-V project successful.
2 of them? Try 500 plus emails and countless hours? I will help you as much as I can, but you need some medication DUDE!

The RAV program doing quite nicely. Try Prozac or Lithium!

You have the best engine from the best engine builder money can buy, dont worry be happy!

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  #269  
Old 04-17-2012, 05:17 PM
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I’ll be going to Norwalk this year whether the car is done or not. I’ll be sure to look for ya. You do still have a few months to work on the GF

I don’t believe Lynn got around to designing guide plates or a rocker shaft for V heads with alternate intake valve placement yet, he can comment if he'd like. I have calls into a few places to see what they can do about a rocker shaft. The lifters are Crower 66260-16 Full Body Mechanical Roller Lifters (.842" dia. / .750" Bearing) which were modified for better oiling. Studs with a girdle and better rockers would be able to handle the spring pressure with minor work, still contemplating my options. The project is still moving forward and I really appreciate the support from you guys that still take my calls.

Ed
We have guideplates no problem. They are standard issues.

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  #270  
Old 04-17-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD View Post
We tried to accomodate you at every turn(which were many), but many items you asked of us simply werent possible. When having a professional builder like Tony build an engine, you must defer to his intellectual prowess. Rex, Stacy, Phil, Langer all can request anything, but we dont always get exactly what we want. Tony reserves the first right of refusal. It is his shop. Same with the fabricators and the Turbo guys. After explaining these things for hours upon hours, sometimes we must call it a day.
Lynn,
Be honest, don’t speak in generalities and please be factual. You should try to answer the specific questions people ask and for god sake change the valve springs on your street engine so you can prove once and for all your street engine can make over 900hp.

Yes, a number of things like turbo and EFI mfg. did change over the course of the build, but the goal was always the same.

You said my CNC ported V heads would be ~80% of a full race head and would flow ~450cfm. Do they?
You recommend 55mm cam journal, yet ordered a standard journal block.
I asked for a Langer oil pan, does the engine have one?
You said you’d fix the water cross-over so it didn’t look unfinished. You even stated that in a PY post.
You ordered the wrong fuel regulator after being told/emailed multiple times it will not flow enough fuel.
You said the cam was going to be a custom turbo cam with 4-7, 2-3 swap, is it?
You said I commissioned the IndyCartel to build the headers up to the collector. You might want to check the invoice; your name is on it.

What did I ask for that wasn’t possible?
Dry vs. Wet deck
SuperDamper vs. Powerbond
Quality rocker arms
Spring pressure suitable for the intended application

Please explain to me why if I was willing to pay for a superdamper and better rocker arms I couldn’t get them? I find it hard to believe that Tony would refuse to put higher quality parts on an engine.


Last edited by RAIV-Z; 04-17-2012 at 07:38 PM.
  #271  
Old 04-18-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
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Lynn,
Be honest, don’t speak in generalities and please be factual. You should try to answer the specific questions people ask and for god sake change the valve springs on your street engine so you can prove once and for all your street engine can make over 900hp.

Yes, a number of things like turbo and EFI mfg. did change over the course of the build, but the goal was always the same.

You said my CNC ported V heads would be ~80% of a full race head and would flow ~450cfm. Do they?
You recommend 55mm cam journal, yet ordered a standard journal block.
I asked for a Langer oil pan, does the engine have one?
You said you’d fix the water cross-over so it didn’t look unfinished. You even stated that in a PY post.
You ordered the wrong fuel regulator after being told/emailed multiple times it will not flow enough fuel.
You said the cam was going to be a custom turbo cam with 4-7, 2-3 swap, is it?
You said I commissioned the IndyCartel to build the headers up to the collector. You might want to check the invoice; your name is on it.

What did I ask for that wasn’t possible?
Dry vs. Wet deck
SuperDamper vs. Powerbond
Quality rocker arms
Spring pressure suitable for the intended application

Please explain to me why if I was willing to pay for a superdamper and better rocker arms I couldn’t get them? I find it hard to believe that Tony would refuse to put higher quality parts on an engine.
You got exactly what you asked for from the beginning. Then it became post my progress updates on the internet for "peer review" without all the facts. Just like you are leaving out facts on here.

Just like the fact that you want a street engine, and Tony refuses to put any more spring on a street engine. He wont do it. NADA. End of story. Now I have posted that 3 times on this thread, and you still dont get it. I tried 500++ emails to explain these items till I am blue in the face and have writer's cramp. You still dont get it.

Your rockers I have run for 30 years as all the Super Stock Pontiac guys without failure with more spring pressure as you. Tony said he has never had a problem with hundreds of engines with these rockers. How many times on this thread have I said this?

At some point in time either I stop repeating myself, we agree to disagree. You maxed out my email server's ability to even count my attempt at accomodating you. We did the best we could. You have a great engine, but you are still worried about the amount of vanilla added to the chocolate cake.

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  #272  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:11 PM
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Is the Energizer rocker die cast, I think they are.

  #273  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
Is the Energizer rocker die cast, I think they are.
If they hold up on the superstockers.... I wouldnt care if they were made of wood!

  #274  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
Is the Energizer rocker die cast, I think they are.
They are manufactured from aerospace quality die-formed aluminum castings and CNC-machined to precise ratio-accurate specifications....

They are designed for use with camshaft/valve train packages that require valve springs with up to 450 lbs. (open) pressure.

http://cranecams.com/view.php?s_id=7

  #275  
Old 04-19-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceWilkie View Post
If they hold up on the superstockers.... I wouldnt care if they were made of wood!
If these specific rockers arms work for the superstock guys, great for them. I prefer to follow manufacturer’s specification as a starting point when selecting parts. Remember the 450lb MFG rating on these rockers is before clearancing.

Bruce, If a SS guy "told" you that the wooden rocker hold up would you use them?

MFG specifications are documented for a reason.

  #276  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:57 PM
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"Is" typo

Well you have extruded, where they force stock through a set of dies. And forged into shape rockers, I do not know of many forged aluminum roller rockers. Erson used to make them and I would think they would be the strongest stud mount aluminum rocker. Made just like a connecting rod.
And you have investment cast, where the cast it into a mold under pressure. Do not know if they do it with aluminum. But they do with stainless and it works very well.
You have die cast, the worst. Just poured into a mold and machined. I know Crane makes some of them and I would not put them into my engine for any reason.
And you have some machined out of billet aluminum stock. I would think T&D would be manufactured like that.
To tell you the truth, I do not like aluminum rockers. The bearings are smaller than the bearings on steel rockers because they have to be. You can get away with less material around the bearing with steel thus you end up with more bearing. Same thing with the tips. They might weigh more but the reciprocating weight on the tips is less.
If the "Energizer" rocker is below the Crane Gold Race rocker in their product line I would just go with the latter.
That is a very expensive engine and I would want at least a top of the line race rocker.

  #277  
Old 04-19-2012, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
"Is" typo

If the "Energizer" rocker is below the Crane Gold Race rocker in their product line I would just go with the latter.
That is a very expensive engine and I would want at least a top of the line race rocker.
The Energizer rocker is a step above Crane's stamped-steel rockers and a step below their standard race rocker. Crane's standard race rocker is rated up to 700lb "open". With the current cam I'm already a few pounds above that.

Based on the original line item price I was expecting the top of the line Crane rocker too, although if I had a choice of stud-mounted rockers I would have preferred the crower stainless with a stud girdle. That being said, after seeing what had to be done to the heads to move the rocker stud locations, I would have opted for a rocker-shaft. Welding, drilling, tapping, clearancing rockers arms, fitting Isky adjustable guide plates, etc... eats up a lot of hours….

  #278  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:16 PM
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Normally a professional engine builder would coach you to purchase a better quality piece just for the "piece of mind" so they would eliminate possible return issues. I could understand the valve spring issue, but why not call him and say you changed your mind and say its a race engine now. Then he can install the correct valve spring?? Doesnt make sense to me.

I dont think he is telling the whole story. Why would a parts manuafacturer or engine builder coach you into buying a cheap rocker arm for a high end build? Thats like putting ketch-up on a $75 porterhouse steak.

Lynn
I dont race super stock but if I did race at that level, does it really make sense to put a $100 set of rocker arms on a 20-30K engine? The problem I'm seeing in this thread was the exact reason why I held off on your heads. Just from the couple emails we exchanged, I could tell I wasnt getting what I wanted but rather get something you wanted to sell me. That seems odd to me, when I go out to eat I dont ask the waiter to bring me what they have. I place a order for what I want.


BTW I dont put ketch-up on a $75 steak. Promote your heads in a positive manner. I for one would like to see if I was wrong with my first impression. I would love to see a set of these run at norwalk this year.

Jeff

  #279  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
"Is" typo

Well you have extruded, where they force stock through a set of dies. And forged into shape rockers, I do not know of many forged aluminum roller rockers. Erson used to make them and I would think they would be the strongest stud mount aluminum rocker. Made just like a connecting rod.
And you have investment cast, where the cast it into a mold under pressure. Do not know if they do it with aluminum. But they do with stainless and it works very well.
You have die cast, the worst. Just poured into a mold and machined. I know Crane makes some of them and I would not put them into my engine for any reason.
And you have some machined out of billet aluminum stock. I would think T&D would be manufactured like that.
To tell you the truth, I do not like aluminum rockers. The bearings are smaller than the bearings on steel rockers because they have to be. You can get away with less material around the bearing with steel thus you end up with more bearing. Same thing with the tips. They might weigh more but the reciprocating weight on the tips is less.
If the "Energizer" rocker is below the Crane Gold Race rocker in their product line I would just go with the latter.
That is a very expensive engine and I would want at least a top of the line race rocker.


My T&D shaft rockers are not machined from billet aluminum stock.

  #280  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:30 PM
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So, how are they made. Extruded ?
Never had a set in my hands. But thinking about getting a set of non offset shaft T&Ds for my High Ports.

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