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#61
11-07-2007, 12:59 AM
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how about the may 06 issue of MUSCLECAR ENTHUSIAST where a 71 H.O. beat up on a 74 SD? the 3.73 4-spd. equiped H.O. ran a best of 12.88@108.57 vs. a th400,3.90 SD's 13.37@103.44!..... how's that for HIGH OUTPUT!!!
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#62
11-07-2007, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
__________________
1973 T/A Buccaneer Red L-75 A3,83k mi. #'s match 1979 T/A Atlantis Blue W-72 WS6 23k mi.survivor#'s match 1999 T/A Navy Blue 60k mi....babied  1968 442-gone but not forgotten "Oh,you can think about it,.....but don't do it!" Sheriff Bufford T.Justice |
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#63
11-07-2007, 10:05 PM
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If you read the whole article and I know you did,you could clearly read that neither car was stock. So anytime you care to find out just how fast an original unrestored unrebuilt SD 455 really runs Bring your unrestored unrebuilt 455 HO out and we'll find out.Than we can make a fair comparison.And Just for argument sake I own a 72 455 HO GTO. |
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#64
11-07-2007, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Clearly that HO was not stock, and the SD probably wasn't, either. If you COULD find a truly representative stock version of each and run them down the same track on the same day with clones driving them, what would we learn? That both are within a few tenths give or take of 14 flat. Which would win? Who knows.... and does it really matter in an era when there are so many new cars on the market that can leave our beloved old Pontiacs (in stock condition) like they were chained to posts? And for less money than a nice restored SD455 T/A would cost.... Like arguing over which flathead Ford V8 was quicker... the '34 or the '36. Sheesh.... 
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keith k 70 Trans Am RA III / T400 / Lucerne Blue / Bright Blue 70 Trans Am RA III / M20 / Lucerne Blue / Sandalwood 70 Formula RA III / M21 / Lucerne Blue / Bright Blue |
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#65
11-07-2007, 11:36 PM
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Keith,
Turn off the traction control on the new car's and or put drag radils on the old Dinosaurs we have and lets talk turkey.And as far as 14 sec. flat in a quarter mile.Drag radials and open exhaust and were talking mid 13's with 342 gears.Other than that it's all stock and never rebuilt!!!!!! |
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#66
11-08-2007, 09:11 AM
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 ...... "hello rich,i got an idea for an episode of pink's"...............
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#67
11-08-2007, 10:35 AM
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These results are from a "factory stock race" Seems like the HO can run in the 12's? 14's are for the D ports!
I think it was Jim Wangers who said the 71 455 HO was the second fastest GTO production engine behind the RA IV. Factory Stock ET's November 2006 1. Jim Spetzman 1969 Dodge Super Bee 440 12.12@112 mph 2. Bruno Beltrane 1969 Pontiac GTO 400 RAIV 12.28@115 mph 3. Peter Germani 1971 Pontiac GTO 455HO 12.30@112 mph 4. Jim Mino 1968 Pontiac Firebird 400 RAII 12.50@114 mph 5. Chuck Lombardi 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle 396 12.51@111 mph 6. Steve Polimeni 1970 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS6 12.67@110 mph 7. Glen Annarumma 1971 Pontiac Trans Am 455HO 12.95@107 mph 8. Larry Wittig 1967 Plymouth GTX 426 Hemi 12.97@111 mph 9. Steve Vanderwall 1969 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 12.97@106 mph 10. George Buttner 1968 Ford Mustang 428 Cobra Jet 13.03@100 mph (Gonzo's car) 11. Dan Korb 1972 Buick GS 455 Stage 1 13.21@103 mph 12. Chris Giardina 1969 Dodge Charger 440 13.55@103 mph 13. John Payne 1965 Pontiac GTO 389 tripower 13.87@103 mph 14. Bob Klemann 1967 Ford Fairlane GT 427 13.93@103 mph 15. Dom Scorziello 1971 Chevrolet Chevelle 454 LS5 13.93@101 mph
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Mike/Illinois Last edited by Judge273; 11-08-2007 at 10:44 AM. |
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#68
11-08-2007, 03:01 PM
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SD how about I swap the stock cam back in, throw the 3.42 rear under it, and a stock converter, then we line them up? HO vs SD... (can I run a 744 or an 041? purdy please?)
I would need the stock intake since mine was gone when I bought the car. I might have a weight advantage since my Formula is rusty
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#69
11-08-2007, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
FOUR Pontiacs in the TOP 7 & 2 of them are 455 HO's.(and they're ALL in the 12's) GILES,I think you need a tune-up! Where were the SD's on the list??? ALSO,note the absence of Ram Air IV T/A's. (too RARE to RACE?) TRAGIC! |
| The Following User Says Thank You to 2manyT/A'S For This Useful Post: | ||
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#70
11-08-2007, 09:54 PM
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 This is gettin good! 
__________________
1973 T/A Buccaneer Red L-75 A3,83k mi. #'s match 1979 T/A Atlantis Blue W-72 WS6 23k mi.survivor#'s match 1999 T/A Navy Blue 60k mi....babied 1968 442-gone but not forgotten "Oh,you can think about it,.....but don't do it!" Sheriff Bufford T.Justice |
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#71
11-08-2007, 11:40 PM
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I think we have to be honest here about ETs. Granted this is bench racing, but the majority of the production BB muscle cars from the late 60s and early 70s can be lumped together;
3700 lbs (+or- 200), an honest 350-375 net HP, 450-500 lb-ft torque, mid 3:1 axle ratio on F60 or so bias plies. These cars ran 13.90s to 14.20s at 95-103 mph depending on the day, the driver and the weather. They did NOT run low 12s at 112mph! Sure, they all can be tweaked today with flow-tested head work, modern camshafts, properly flowed carbs and dialed-in distributors. Drag radials and a set of aluminum wheels would help a bunch too! Most of the "pure-stock" and FAST cars have been carefully blueprinted and produce 10-20% more power than they did when they left the factory. It is a little tougher to make more torque without a stroker crank, but horsepower is easy; Just spin it faster and make the torque at a higher rpm! |
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#72
11-10-2007, 07:33 PM
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H.O.'s at goodguys.
went to the goodguys autumn get together today in plesanton,ca. and found a pair of blue 72's & 1 71 T/A. the yellow 71 is the former bfg radial t/a tirebird show car for 1971. although it started life with an H.O. and a 4-spd. it now house's a ls6 bbc and an auto....funny, not a single sd was in sight.......
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#73
11-11-2007, 01:32 AM
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Man!
A 4spd Lucy Blue 72 TA.................I think I soiled myself. That's one for DDD. Dreamin..Desire...........................DROOL!!! !!!!!!! 
__________________
1973 T/A Buccaneer Red L-75 A3,83k mi. #'s match 1979 T/A Atlantis Blue W-72 WS6 23k mi.survivor#'s match 1999 T/A Navy Blue 60k mi....babied 1968 442-gone but not forgotten "Oh,you can think about it,.....but don't do it!" Sheriff Bufford T.Justice |
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#74
11-11-2007, 09:29 PM
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NOS 71 HO Q-jet
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#75
11-17-2007, 06:53 PM
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What's it WORTH???
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WELL,we're getting down to the WIRE,here! Bid up to $4000.00,(reseve NOT met) & only 2 1/2 hours to go! I wonder,is the reserve $5000.00? I would say that this carb is got to be the TOUGHEST 71 HO part to find,with a stick code engine block running a close 2nd. My call is that there are MORE 71 455 HO stick cars out there with their original BLOCKS than original CARBS! |
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#76
11-17-2007, 07:47 PM
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The '71 A-body 455HO RamAir throttle cable mounting bracket is also very tough.
Wouldn't surprise me if this "1273" had a 5K reserve. Original date "1273"s are a very TOUGH find. The thing that makes them so tough, is there weren't that many built. Count up the '71 manual trans Judges, the manual trans RamAir equipped 455 HO GTO's & LeMans, the manual trans 455HO RA Formula's, & throw a few very very late built '71 manual trans T/A's in the mix... that's it. When I found the one I needed nearly 10 years ago for my Judge (Smoke Signals ad), had over a dozen phone calls forwarded to me... all from other Pontiac restorers who needed the same dated "1273". The only harder to find Pontiac Q-jet is the 7028277. Last edited by 'ol Pinion head; 11-17-2007 at 07:58 PM. |
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#77
11-18-2007, 03:10 AM
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NO SALE,but bids to $4000.00!
Just checking & in January 1971,the price for a BRAND NEW 71 T/A was just under $4600.00! (perhaps that was the reserve?) |
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#78
11-19-2007, 11:25 AM
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All Things Covered
This is a very interesting thread for me. What I consider Pontiac's best street motor is the HO but it may not be the best race motor.
I am the one who built both motors and wrote the article for Musclecar Enthusiast. I also did the RA IV/RA III comparo, '68/9 350 HO comparo, '70/1 LS6 comparo, L88, 440+6 and many more for them. Dan Jensen and I built all the motors for these dyno articles and ultimately for them to go into Pure Stock race cars. As most of these motors were for either Dan's, mine, our brothers or close friends cars we showed zero bias. For each comparison we tried to exactly match the motors to each other per the PS rules. As to stock SD's and HO's. My brother has a completely stock SD T/A with auto and my original motor for the HO T/A in the article is set aside and the addtional motor built. The set aside motor is unrebuilt original. In the taste test between the two when the HO had it's original 3.42 gears with the M22 it was much much faster than the SD. As to the article, the SD we did was for Paul Aragona's car. It was actually pushed a bit harder per the rules than the HO in my T/A. With further tuning, as the times listed above were for the first time out for both cars, they have progressed. I drove both cars for those ET's. This fall w/Scott Tieman driving the HO at the Pure Stock Drags it was running consistant 12.60's @ 110.9's with one 111 pass. The SD has hit 13.20's @ 104 now. After the race we went back and looked for problem areas on the SD. We found a few (exhaust was changed and valves re-lashed) and the seat of the pants tells us we certianly found more. Paul's SD is the fastest legal SD to ever run at the PS drags. It has more in it and we will keep searching for what is missing. I still feel the car has an elusive 12 second pass in it. It get's fantastic short times we just need to pull all the detials together. The HO was dealing with a slippery track this year and we have pretty much found the end of its rope. It has quicker times in it on days when the track sticks better and will hold second gear power shifts but at 12.60's and high 110's on pump gas who can complain. The real strength and weakness between the two when meeting the low compression restrictions of the factory build and PS rules is this: The HO makes a bunch more torque than the SD and the HO weights a bunch less. The SD has too much duration for its compression ratio. They make similar hp when done but the HO makes an extra 30 lb-ft of tq. Now full blown race setup's...Give me the SD heads... The Gonzo's Factory Stock race listed above is not indicative of good times. The rules are scewed in strange ways and that particular day had mineshaft air that was 900' below sea level. For record times in the PS/FS races currently two places are used with a third in Virginia to be added. They all run under the same rules with the same tech's. These are Martin MI FAST race with the FS class and of course the Pure Stock drags. At this juncture my RA IV Judge is the fastest Pontiac to ever run. It has gone 12.305@114.81 in bad air with no correction factor. Next up is Tony Goodman's RA II at 12.38@110+ followed by a true battle between Dan Jensen's T-37, Jim Mino's RA II Bird and Bruno's '69 RA IV Goat. They are on top of each other. Although, and this is to poke at Bruno the last two times out Jim beat Bruno by mere hundreths. That has to hurt Bruno! As to the rare RA IV T/A's not running... We just put one on the track. It is a blue/blue 4spd with 23K original miles. It was bought from the original owners wife when he passed away. On a very bad track and its first shake down runs had it going mid 12's at almost 114. It had quicker short times than the Judge and ultimately is likely a faster car. The car has original times slips from it being 100% stock such as jetting, exhasut, bias ply's... The car was bought that way. It ran consistant 105 mph ET's in the 13's. It has a box full of trophy's for the PS class back in the '70's at ATCO raceway. Good tuning, modern Pypes exhaust, and moder bias ply's has turned that into 12's. The exhaust change when the Judge was an untuned stocker knock nearly a full second of an original exhaust system alone. In the end though it may be impossible to beat the RA II cars. They have a huge weight advantage that is likely impossible to over come for the other combo's. We are currently working on two additional RA II's for next years season. That likely says more about what the racers believe than anything else. I appreciate everyone giving me the time here. If you have any questions let me know I will answer them the best I can. Mark |
| The Following User Says Thank You to Mark Weymouth For This Useful Post: | ||
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#79
11-19-2007, 11:53 AM
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Mark,
Thanks for posting the great info. Very informative read. If you can tell us...What is the exhaust system pipe size(s) front to rear on the 71 TA? Does it use a stock 2.125" exhaust manifold or something larger? Restoring a 72 TA and would like to maximize performance but have no intentions to race it. If need be PM me or email at jccerobertson@sbcglobal.net. Thanks, Jim |
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#80
11-19-2007, 01:49 PM
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We appreciate all this great information, Mark.
Thanks for filling us in on the details, and we certainly welcome you to the PY forums.
__________________
Regards, "455HO" Lloyd 2008 GMC Sierra Denali 2WD Crew, L92 6L80E, Silver w/ Ebony guts, 14.26 @ 98 
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