[HWYSTR455]

A 4L80e is about 55lbs heavier than a TH400, that's not really that much of a compromise for an overdrive. Even a basic rebuilt 4L80e can handle like 700ft lbs plus.

A basic rebuilt 4L80e is the same money as a TH400. Sometimes cheaper. The added costs are the additional pieces you need. Once you have those extra pieces, it's a non-factor.

If you have no trans to start with, then the difference is even less of a gap, since you have to buy a trans anyway. (no loss of current investment)

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[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I've set up a good number of 700-R4/4L60's for customers, a few of them are members of this Forum. One in particular was done over 20 years ago for a 1969 GTO with a pretty stout 400 in it. Never the first glitch anyplace and coincidentally he called me recently for advice on another topic and said he absolutely loves the trans. We talked a bit about the "low" first gear deal, said it's not noticed nor is the slightly bigger gear spread from 1st to 2nd some folks mention on that topic. While on the topic I only do "non-LU" for retrofitting and use custom built torque converters for them with very efficient characteristics for "normal" driving but still have excellent torque multiplication and decent flash stall speeds. Another "myth" associated with using OD's and non-LU is smoking the trans because of converter slippage. That statement is absolute and utter NONSENSE like many other regurgitated issues with many parts we continue to see on the Forums, mostly from folks with little to no experience at all with them.

I have two customers with big block Chevelle's using 700-R4's, one is behind a 496 making well over 500hp and 600tq and no issues. He runs 3.73's and I asked him once about the extra-low 1st gear and 1-2 gear spread. He said that folks bellyaching about that chit need to keep their day-jobs.....his Chevelle blasts off low 11 second runs in full street trim and no shortcomings anyplace on the launch or thru the gears that could be noticed while you are pinned against the seat and all the blood running out of your face!.....LOL......Cliff

Have you done any of the 1-2 gear swaps in the 700R4/4L60's?

[bb400ho]

going to go see the guy today to see what he will do. if he fixes it for just parts ill probably run it for a little bit and maybe get the 700r4 or the 480le. i really wanted the O.D.i see a nice 700r4 in the parts for sale. too bad its on the other side of the country.
thanks Bryan

[hgerhardt]

Originally Posted by bb400ho

going to go see the guy today to see what he will do. if he fixes it for just parts ill probably run it for a little bit and maybe get the 700r4 or the 480le. i really wanted the O.D.i see a nice 700r4 in the parts for sale. too bad its on the other side of the country.
thanks Bryan

Update this thread when you find out exactly what broke please!

[Steve C.]

I'm not here to advocate the use of a 2004R transmission, but reading Cliff's comments on "non-LU" converters is worth noting.

I know there is controversy regarding it but in my opinion the best thing we did early on was to change from a lock up converter to a non lock up converter on my 2004R transmission. (That and a proper TV cable hook up)

My 2004R transmission was built to go behind my 505 with well over 600 ft.lbs. torque, used all the expensive 'billet' parts. I had some minor difficulty at first and it had to come out. While out it was then I had it changed from using a lock up torque converter. My non-LU converter was built by Continental and purchased thru Cliff. It is well coupled out on the open highway with about a 200 rpm slippage. The transmission has been in service for almost 12 years.


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[Cliff R]

Have you done any of the 1-2 gear swaps in the 700R4/4L60's?

No, haven't even been in a 4L60 or 4L60E in at least 4 years now.

I did a 200-4R for a local customer that ran for a while behind a 350 Olds engine in a 1984 442 and now has a strong running 425 sitting in front of it, no issues anyplace. We converted it to non-LU and use a custom built converter in it.

I've seen enough folks KILL 200's doing the forced full throttle downshift at speed and not surprised this one let-go. Coincidentally a good customer of mine just purchased a custom 200 from one of the big shops for his 383 powered Corvette. On the initial test drive all was well till he went to full throttle around 45-50mph. It broke the shaft on the input drum nearly as I can remember. Took literally minutes to fix once it was out, didn't hurt anything else.....

https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/...he-input-drum/

A good idea above.....IMHO.....

[bb400ho]

I stopped by the trans shop at lunchtime. he was super nice said he would take care of what ever it is. i told him if need to upgrade parts i would be happy to pay for that.

one more question about the lock up. is it better to not have it? the new converter is a lock up but i didn't hook it up. also i didn't have any idea that hitting the gas and letting the trans do the down shifting was harder on it than manually downshifting. live and learn, i know now! thanks for the comments and info. ill post what the problem was when its fixed
thanks Bryan

[Cardo]

I too am using a 200R4, and i did have mine built by Lonnie at Extreme Automatics. You may want to take a look at this if you are going to go with the lock up converter. https://shop.bowlertransmissions.com...control-module I talked with Lonnie about it, he liked the idea and he installed it when he built my trans. Unfortunately i can't tell you anything about it from experience yet, still building the car.

[Navy Horn 16]

Originally Posted by bb400ho

One more question about the lock up. is it better to not have it?

It is better to not have it. You don't really lose anything at cruise, and it's much more driveable without it and you don't have to fool with wiring.

I have a B&M Quicksilver shifter, so I pretty much always drive mine like a sequential transmission. It originally came out of a Monte Carlo, and the valve body has a "safety" feature that shifts 1->2 no matter what at about 5500 RPM. With the shift kit that I have in there, it's pretty much perfect every time at the strip, and I don't even really have to think from the green until 3rd.

[bb400ho]

Originally Posted by Navy Horn 16

It is better to not have it. You don't really lose anything at cruise, and it's much more driveable without it and you don't have to fool with wiring.

I have a B&M Quicksilver shifter, so I pretty much always drive mine like a sequential transmission. It originally came out of a Monte Carlo, and the valve body has a "safety" feature that shifts 1->2 no matter what at about 5500 RPM. With the shift kit that I have in there, it's pretty much perfect every time at the strip, and I don't even really have to think from the green until 3rd.

wow i also have the quicksilver shifter and my trans is from a monte carlo ss. i cant remember who i bought it from but someone here on the boards had fit the shifter into a console. i had to do a little finish work but i think it looks great.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

A TH400 with 3.08s is not a bad combo.........
These days, even TH400s are not that cheap to do 'right', if you can squeeze more cash, and get OD, that would be optimum...........

A good TH400 with a good converter these days are close to $2k, if not more. (depending on the converter). The cost of trans alone between a TH400 and a 4L80e is about the same. .......

I beg to raise my $320 TH400 rate. 4L80 is a pesky level of dis-assy so the Labor should be 3x the TH400, but I gots trouble charging even 2x the TH400.

Surely others out there do these things. For friends, relatives, and people of that sort. HIS

[Half-Inch Stud]

As for the Locking Converter: A nice novelty to keep: Peace of mind knowing the fluid isn't getting hot on a long highway haul. Simply put a 5 Ohm 5 Watt resistor i series with a Switch to Ground. Also assures you cooling lines can go to a floorboard cooler, or...Loop-Back! if you know what your application is doing. Gotta get the 1/4 mile heat out you know.

Definitely good to run unlocked to boil accumulated moisture out the vent tube. Moisture leads to rust which leads to Babbit crystal corrosion, Drum-Band abrasion, and pitting ing the Steels. I run unlocked mostly.

[bb400ho]

Ok the trans guy said the main shaft snapped. we are going with shaft and pump upgrade. i will also add a cooler to the lines. thanks for the advise and opinions
thanks bryan

[76TA462]

I picked up one of Lonnie’s 2004R (Stage 2) for the OD swap from my TH400, with 3.23 rear gear. Choose it for a variety of reasons. There are tons of arguments that agree and disagree. I did lots of research and I’ll report back later this summer on that. bb400ho, as for your original comment on what it was supposed to do. Not sure what the TQ was rated at for your tranny, but as a reference point Lonnie’s stage 1 does 500 HP and 400 TQ. Not hard to have more than 400 TQ with the 455. There is a long-standing reputable tranny shop in my city that I have dealt with for a very long time, that is addition to the meat and potatoes tranny repairs, has done these swaps (they did my original 4-speed to TH400 swap way back when). They said that they could build a beefed up 2004R but highly recommended I do some research and go to a more appropriate shop, of which there aren’t many. Straight up said their’s "might" not last in my application. And its not a race car.

[HWYSTR455]

And so the long journey of failures begin. I wish you the best. Please keep the thread updated on your experiences.


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[Chief of the 60's]

[76TA462]

Ha Ha. Me too, hope it ends well. Will keep you posted.

[Sirrotica]

FWIW, when the 200 swap is mentioned on PY, the supporters always cite the turbo buick GN guys use the 200 in their cars. So I went to the buick site and read some of the posts in the transmission section.

Seems even though there are some of the top 200 builders in the country on that board that these transmissions have frequent failures. The conscientious seems to be that the the full tilt transmissions are fine up to 11 second cars, then the difference between a great builder and a mediocre builder show up quickly.

There are many swaps listed that after 2-3 transmission failures the people that own these cars switch to T400 transmission, of course the sacrifice the OD feature by going to the T400, but they feel it's worth it for reliability.

Of course they can go to a GV unit ,with a T400 but the contention is that the GV units also fail under abuse. That's not hard to believe since the GV unit was originally designed in the UK for use mostly behind 4 cylinder British cars, and the later the updated, stronger design, was used heavily in Volvo 6 cylinder cars. GV bought the rights, and manufactured the new units in the US. The basic design remains the same.

Some of the latest posts on the buick site are mentioning swapping 4L80Es into their cars because the strength is already engineered into the design, and they want OD transmissions that last longer than a few months, to a few years.

I'm not posting to start an argument, I did just as the 200 supporters suggested, and went to the buick turbo site to find out how they make the 200 live. I did that and found out that the durability is a tossup. Some people that have had 200s built by reputable builders that frequent that site, that last years, others have had transmissions built that don't make a month after installation. It seems the same here, some people can get years out of a 200, other people can't. Those buick turbo owners that haven't had good luck, went with a stronger unit (T400 or 4L80E, some 4L60Es).

I'm trying to keep an open mind, and do as the 200 supporter suggested, and found a mixed report from members on that site about 200 reliability. Instead of starting a pissin match, I suggest anyone that has an opinion, pro or con, go directly to the buick turbo site and read the posts from the owners. https://www.turbobuick.com/

[76TA462]

As promised, some feed back. Been a long time coming with all that’s going on, and life, plus other TA tweaks ongoing.
Using Extreme Automatic Stage 2 behind a 575 plus or minus hp tq 462. Swapped out my TH400 (which was swapped in early 80s to replace OEM 4-speed) for their 2004R. Using Extreme’s 9.5" 2500 stall non-lockup torque converter and their TV cable set-up, and followed the clear adjustment manual to the letter.
Used same drive shaft with new spline, same cross member and position, no tunnel work, new (taller) transmission mount. Went in easy. My old and faithful B&M Megashifter 80694 easily changed to 4 speed.
No glitches. At this point only a few hundred miles while also dialing in new Sniper program and added timing control.
Shifts are freakin awesome. Really nice feeling transmission, very reactive, very crisp up-shifts, not harsh, and feels (seat of the pants) very strong. Fourth comes in smooth and with easy driving it slides in seamlessly. I will likely just drive with it in 3rd, and manually go to fourth on a need-be basis. For my specific needs this is a huge improvement on the TH400 shifting and personality (I used a TransGo 2 shift kit for my TH400). That said, the TH400 served me well for a long time and in the early eighties it was to go to tranny, at least where I’m from.
I will report back later with more miles on it and more sporty driving. But so far, a real big smile!!

[76TA462]

PS My hp tq numbers are at the crank.