#41  
Old 07-05-2020, 10:00 AM
ponjohn's Avatar
ponjohn ponjohn is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 9,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
On the later model 80's they moved one of the cooler lines to the back of the trans housing. Was an improvement in oiling.

Problem becomes the case getting pretty close to the trans tunnel in that area, making it nearly impossible to bend a steel line to make the 90 degree turn into the case.

There are adapter fittings made that turns this into a banjo fitting similar to a disc brake caliper. Makes line install a snap.

Ahh ok, I was aware of the change. The 80e I have is an earlier design.



What are you guys doing for a rebuild for say, 600 / 600?

I'd live to get away from the adapter plate but the replacement ultra-bell is expensive.


If you run a 3.08 gear with t400 it is the same as a 4.10 with an 80e in overdrive.

  #42  
Old 07-05-2020, 10:25 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponjohn View Post
Ahh ok, I was aware of the change. The 80e I have is an earlier design.



What are you guys doing for a rebuild for say, 600 / 600?

I'd live to get away from the adapter plate but the replacement ultra-bell is expensive.


If you run a 3.08 gear with t400 it is the same as a 4.10 with an 80e in overdrive.
I've seen near stock 80's in 600hp applications without trouble, they are pretty robust. Matter of fact the 400 turbo I'm currently running in my Chevelle has a 600hp/tq 454 in it, I rebuilt the trans myself with just a basic stock kit, didn't even use a 34 element sprag. Just good quality clutches and steels, shoved a Continental converter in it and that trans has been going fine for about 15 years now, with 1.5 60's in a 4100 lbs. car. It mainly just has valve body modifications in it.

LOL yeah I'm not putting a 3.08 gear in it. Not only is that a carrier change, That would absolutely kill the 60, likely push the converter out of it's usable range and another converter would be needed, and would slow the car down to the point I'd be digging into the trans for a low gear set (which still wouldn't get effective ratios where I am now) to try and gain back some of the ET I'm currently running.

I'd much rather go the 80E route, keep the 4.10 setup that really works well with the RPM range this engine likes to cross the finish line at, and then enjoy the .75 reduction and gain 20 mph on the highway. It's a win win, best of both scenario, but it costs money of course.
Maybe at some point if I stop racing the car so much I may drop the rear gear down to a thin 3.73 that works with the Moroso Brute Strength 4 series carrier, but I'm not going to be in a hurry to do that.
I'm likely going to go with Hughes "street/strip" 4L80E rated at 850hp and give me room to grow for the new engine setup, plus they are local to me.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE

Last edited by Formulajones; 07-05-2020 at 11:11 AM.
  #43  
Old 07-05-2020, 10:37 AM
ron cozzo's Avatar
ron cozzo ron cozzo is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Delaware, Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,820
Default

I went with Gearstar because they're within driving distance for me. Akron, Ohio. https://gearstar.com/gm-4l80e-perfor...ssion-level-2/

__________________
'04 GTO Yellow Jacket, A4, Kooks, CAI, etc.
'02 Firebird, V6, auto
'68 GTO Convertible, HO, 4spd, driver
'66 LeMans Hardtop, 400, FI, A/C, 4L80E.
'64 GTO Hardtop, "389", Tri-power, 5 speed, A/C, Yorktown Blue.
http://www.gtoaco.com
  #44  
Old 07-05-2020, 10:47 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

I probably would have done the same if I still lived in Ohio. Location is a big player in choice for me.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #45  
Old 07-06-2020, 09:09 AM
Mr Anonymous's Avatar
Mr Anonymous Mr Anonymous is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Waynesville, OH
Posts: 394
Default

final drive ratio can also bring up some other considerations. Friend of mine with 462" olds in an 87 cutlass with 6 speed manual (5 is .75:1 and 6th is .5:1), 9" ford rear. He autocrosses occasionally, and drives it city/highway/whatever. He's got 4.30s in the back and in 6th its up to 2.15:1! Problem he had to deal with is driveshaft diameter. With that 4.30 gear at 80-85mph, you have some sustained high driveshaft rpm. He had a vibration that stemmed from insufficient driveshaft diameter for the rpm it was running. The engine is just purring along, but that driveshaft is spinning like the knob on the ****house door.

__________________
Clutch Guys Matter
_______________________________________
53 Studebaker, 400P/th400/9"
64 F-85
72 4-4-2 Mondello's VO Twister II
84 Hurst/Olds #2449
87 Cutlass Salon
54 Olds 88 sedan
  #46  
Old 07-06-2020, 10:22 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

Agree, driveshafts should be considered. I ran a couple of 6 speeds for a while, with .50 overdrives and 4.10's.
In all the overdrive swaps I've done I always had a new (stronger) shaft professionally built and balanced, usually with larger joints in the process. I generally end up with thicker wall tubing and stick with steel if the length isn't excessive.
Once they get to a certain length, whipping becomes a problem because of the weight, and why GM went to aluminum drive shafts. You see that in trucks a lot, where GM used to use a 2 piece steel shaft with a carrier bearing in the middle for support because they had to be so long. When that idea was eliminated they went to one piece aluminum shafts to keep the weight down, then the shafts could be made much longer. Always something to think about.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #47  
Old 07-06-2020, 01:28 PM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

There is also a lot more heat generated in the rearend with the low ratios. The heat problem with 3.90's and lower wasn't much of a factor with the old Muncie because we worried about what the extended term RPM was doing to the engine. While we might have bumped speed up for a few miles with the lower gearsets, we didn't get on the freeway and go for an hour or more at high speed. We tend to forget that that little pinion is madly spinning away since the engine now loafs along in overdrive.

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #48  
Old 07-06-2020, 02:15 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

Another reason the extra capacity aluminum covers are a good idea.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #49  
Old 07-06-2020, 02:24 PM
Sirrotica's Avatar
Sirrotica Sirrotica is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Catawba Ohio
Posts: 7,190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lust4speed View Post
There is also a lot more heat generated in the rearend with the low ratios. The heat problem with 3.90's and lower wasn't much of a factor with the old Muncie because we worried about what the extended term RPM was doing to the engine. While we might have bumped speed up for a few miles with the lower gearsets, we didn't get on the freeway and go for an hour or more at high speed. We tend to forget that that little pinion is madly spinning away since the engine now loafs along in overdrive.
Which is no different than most trucks that are 4.10 and numerically higher, but a truck differential is usually larger in overall construction. Allowing for at least twice the oil volume of a standard car differential. The smaller overall construction only allows for so much oil in the available space.

Ford style 9 inches used in nascar have fluid coolers and pumps, because of the sustained time they are used, (roughly 3 hours) even though the ratios are mostly 3.50 and numerically lower, they still build heat running in a high heat environment, exhaust proximity, and black asphalt that routinely can be in excess of 140 degrees.

__________________
Brad Yost
1973 T/A (SOLD)
2005 GTO
1984 Grand Prix

100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated

  #50  
Old 07-06-2020, 02:43 PM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

And trucks usually have larger diameter tires which reduces axle speed.

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #51  
Old 07-08-2020, 11:39 AM
moontower69's Avatar
moontower69 moontower69 is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 522
Default 3.55 or 3.42

I had a 700R4 on my 65 Goat and with that annoyingly low first gear of 3.06, it was super revy around town with 3.73 - I dropped down to 3.55 and about right, especially with big tires.

if you have more stock tires, I'd say 3.42 is perfect.

Just my experience.

Remember that 3.06 is made to get a heavy truck or SUV rolling from a dead stop, gets a little annoying in a GTO for driving in stop and go traffic, and you can't start off in 2d.

__________________
1974 Lemans Sportecoupe GT (daily driver)

"Well the girls out there knock me out, you know
Cruisin' around in my GTO"

Rock 'n' Roll High School
Ramones
  #52  
Old 07-10-2020, 04:15 PM
geeteeohguy's Avatar
geeteeohguy geeteeohguy is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Fresno, California
Posts: 5,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 Limelight View Post
I'd leave the 3.23's in there, all things considered. You pretty much answered your own questions. "It's pretty much a cruiser". "Live in SoCal and do a lot of freeway time". If you venture into some of the states to the east of you where speed limits are 75,80,85 and no limit on interstates you'll appreciate those 3.23's. I live in Missouri but, I've been out there with my 700R4, 3.23 equipped 69 GTO and it's pretty nice zipping along at 80,85 and still be under 2800-3000 RPM. You start putting some "gear" in it you'll be defeating your purpose IMO. Plus, I don't know what rear end you have but, if it's the 8.2 any move above 3.23 will require a carrier change. More $. Also, you already said when "putting" around the torque of your engine does just fine. My vote, leave it alone use the money you would have spent on a rear gear change to buy fuel and take some trips. Believe me, the more you drive it, especially in the "wide open spaces" out west the more you'll like it. I know I do mine. Just my opinions. Enjoy.
My thoughts, too. If it lugs in OD at 60, just drop it into D. When traffic clears up, shift it back into OD. Simple. I'm running 2.56 rear gears in my '67 GTO with an 068 cam and a stock 400 with lower compression (9.3) and a TH400. It cruises 80 mph at 2450 RPM and gets over 20 mpg doing it. I drive mostly freeway, too. At 65 mph, the rpm drops, but it still has plenty of oomph and doesn't lug. In this car, 2000-3000 rpm is the sweet spot.

__________________
Jeff
  #53  
Old 07-10-2020, 05:01 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

Question SJdiesel, Since lugging at 60 is your concern, can't you adjust the lockup with the controller you are using?

All the "E" transmissions I've messed with you could program the lockup to engage or release at any speed desired, and even play with TPS input so at 60 MPH if you pushed the throttle passed a given percentage, the converter unlocks so you don't have that chug or lugging sensation.
That is the beauty of having an electronic trans. Even with an aggressive camshaft you can delay the lockup anywhere you like for smoother operation at low speeds or have it pop out with more TPS input. Something that is nearly impossible to do and work well with TV cable OD's and lockup converters that work off a vacuum switch. Very limited with what you can do with those.

Just curious, what controller are you using? Does it not have that kind of adjustability?

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #54  
Old 07-10-2020, 06:11 PM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

What flexplate is used with the 4L80e? Can a flexplate for a T400 can be used? Do most converters have a three or four point mount? I gather the converters are different between the 4L80e and T400?

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #55  
Old 07-10-2020, 06:16 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

Some even have a 6 bolt mount. I just installed a real 69 GM L88 converter in a 400 here and it's a 6 bolt flexplate mount. The flexplate only had 3 of the 6 holes, so I only used the 3. Could have drilled the other 3 just wasn't ambitious enough.

The last 4L80E I had here had a GM converter in it and it was a 6 bolt.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #56  
Old 07-10-2020, 07:17 PM
sjdiesel's Avatar
sjdiesel sjdiesel is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
Posts: 183
Default

I guess I should clarify the "lug" I was talking about earlier. Its not really a bad lug, the engine makes plenty of low end torque to pull it. And yes when traffic slows down I sometimes drop to third, but I have since played with the controller and it now unlocks the converter which seems like the engine is happier.

I guess I just figured why have such tall gears with an OD trans. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

I'm running the USShift controller. Thing is awesome! Well worth the $$$.

Mick, I am running a regular flex plate I purchased from Butler. Same one I ran with my th400. My 4L80e converter has 6 bolts but the flex plate only lines up with 3. So I have three installed.

like I said earlier, I am going to leave the 3.23 gears for now. I want to swap out the converter first for something more "sporty" .

__________________
Sean
1967 GTO
Koerner built 468 with Edelbrock RP’s 315cfm by Butler, Luanti Voodoo HR 20510713, 4l80e, Holley Terminator EFI
  #57  
Old 07-10-2020, 10:36 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,790
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjdiesel View Post
I guess I should clarify the "lug" I was talking about earlier. Its not really a bad lug, the engine makes plenty of low end torque to pull it. And yes when traffic slows down I sometimes drop to third, but I have since played with the controller and it now unlocks the converter which seems like the engine is happier.

).
I figured that would help after I read your first post again.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #58  
Old 07-11-2020, 03:33 AM
lust4speed's Avatar
lust4speed lust4speed is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Yucaipa, SoCal
Posts: 8,684
Default

This doesn't have a whole lot of relevance, but does have a little. My 67 "Cruiser" had a Chevy 3.31 rear for many years with the 200-4R. When I was getting ready to put it up for sale I figured it was time to rebuild the stored 10-bolt so the car would be a little more correct. As long as I was at it, I changed the gears out to 3.55's. Not much of a change, but after so long driving it with the slightly higher ratio I found myself cruising five MPH slower with the 3.55's if I didn't watch the speedo. Funny how we get used to a specific engine sound/vibration. I just mention this because if you live with the 3.23's for very long, a change to a lower rear gear might seem a little unnatural buzzing down the freeway.

__________________
Mick Batson
1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress.
  #59  
Old 07-11-2020, 01:42 PM
ponjohn's Avatar
ponjohn ponjohn is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 9,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjdiesel View Post
I guess I should clarify the "lug" I was talking about earlier. Its not really a bad lug, the engine makes plenty of low end torque to pull it. And yes when traffic slows down I sometimes drop to third, but I have since played with the controller and it now unlocks the converter which seems like the engine is happier.

I guess I just figured why have such tall gears with an OD trans. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

I'm running the USShift controller. Thing is awesome! Well worth the $$$.

Mick, I am running a regular flex plate I purchased from Butler. Same one I ran with my th400. My 4L80e converter has 6 bolts but the flex plate only lines up with 3. So I have three installed.

like I said earlier, I am going to leave the 3.23 gears for now. I want to swap out the converter first for something more "sporty" .

Under what conditions does it unlock?

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:44 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017