[cgeise]

I was just reading thru some of the threads here and it kinda struck a cord on a few different fronts. First -- we seem to argue about almost everything even Motor homes, just saying.
Another other point I see is that being on the "edge" of the racing/performance world us Pontiac guys seems to feel the need to puff out our chest a little hard, even with other Pontiac guys. I know Plenty of guys Racing NHRA National and divisional and never hear this division by camp stuff. One opinion on why this is --- Most of the Product they are using comes from big company's that have a proven product to sell. We on the other hand are a very small neich group and some of our stuff is done on a shoe string by "Enthusiests" that have limited experience or business savy. This not a knock, and I applaud there effort, but it does produce mixed results and its own set of Problems.
Another point that seems to be in the back ground is the fact that very few busines's will ever survive long being a Pontiac only entity. I think the succesfull ones wear many hats and do the Pontiac stuff as a labor of love, while at the same time making some extra money, while letting there main line stuff pay the bills. Ok Flame on

[v869tr6]

I hope to someday have a set of 18 head bolt heads on a Pontiac style block at a reasonable cost.

[David Holmberg]

Curt I think it comes down to one thing, honestly.

Passion. As you stated, Pontiac shops do this as a labor of love with the hopes of breaking even much less making a profit. To them this is their baby, and they love it.

When people criticize kids in a beauty contest its all good until you happen say something to a parent or relative then the fight is on. When its your baby you will defend it even when all odds are against you.

Happy New year!

[Elarson]

The limits on available Pontiac parts forces serious racers to be more creative and to work harder at putting together a good engine package. That's what makes running Pontiacs interesting to me. I'd be bored to death getting out my checkbook and buying a bunch of proven Chevy parts (or hemi parts in the case of the funny car).

JMHO,
Eric

[Travis Q]

Eric, I fully agree when you're bracket racing, doing booked in shows, or match racing.

When you're heads up racing, it sure does become hard to justify the "cool factor" of running a Pontiac when you are down three to four tenths and get your butt handed to you on a weekly basis (if you can even qualify). And goodness help you should you hurt something.....

[Elarson]

Which explains why we love match racing....we get to pursue our passion instead of a rule book.

On an entirely different note, I've always wondered if somebody with a really deep checkbook couldn't make a competitive Pontiac for Comp. I imagine starting with the best legal head available and then working backward to determine a small inch engine that would make enough power-to-cubes to be competitive. The price tag would not be for the faint of heart but the cool factor would be out the roof.

JMHO,
Eric

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Which explains why we love match racing....we get to pursue our passion instead of a rule book.

In Outlaw Pro Mod racing here in the Southeast, there is no rule book. Sign the waiver and race.

Which means that we get to go up against BAE Hemis with C rotor screw blowers at 125% overdrive, and 905 cubic inch engines with four stages of nitrous......with a Pontiac sporting Performer RPM cylinder heads.


We've truly lost our ever loving minds.

If only there were more of us, maybe doing a billet block or head for our application would make more sense.

[Travis Q]

And to add to Curt's post, I have no idea why the division in the Pontiac community. It is truly baffling to me. If anything, as small as the group is, Pontiac enthusiasts should be pulling together. Now, I understand that there are sometimes differences of opinions, or feathers get ruffled, but that's really not what I'm referring to.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

And to add to Curt's post, I have no idea why the division in the Pontiac community. It is truly baffling to me. If anything, as small as the group is, Pontiac enthusiasts should be pulling together. Now, I understand that there are sometimes differences of opinions, or feathers get ruffled, but that's really not what I'm referring to.

X 1,000,000

Eric

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Elarson

The limits on available Pontiac parts forces serious racers to be more creative and to work harder at putting together a good engine package. That's what makes running Pontiacs interesting to me. I'd be bored to death getting out my checkbook and buying a bunch of proven Chevy parts (or hemi parts in the case of the funny car).

JMHO,
Eric

One of the things that stunts us is the "proven" parts thing... its a nice thing to want in some ways, but at our volume level it could/can drive costs of some things to point most wouldnt/cant justify spending for.

If a manufacturer had to build some killer combo, dyno it and refine it to perfection, that cost, one way or another, would get passed onto all the consumers of that companies products.(Yep our Pontiac part prices from Edelbrock help cover r+d costs on Chev and Ford parts) A start-up company has to eat costs till they establish market then work on recouping their investment.

If you are a big company with thousands of customers your R+D costs can be spread across those thousands of customers allowing you a very competitive price advantage.

You can bet those R+D costs arent eaten by the larger more established company. No one runs a business to lose money. Nor do business want unhappy customers.

With the low volume of consumers in this market extensive R+D of certain products would up our price tag considerably.

I think we are quite fortunate to have what we have and thank all those who are trying to bring to market things we need and want.

So much we do have is because of talented Pontiac enthusiasts trying to aid our cause. Keep in mind many(most?) of them arent marketing specialists and few if any have intensions that are questionable.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by cgeise

...Ok Flame on

Curt, What did you mean by that?

[Travis Q]

I agree with Bruce to a large extent. Life in the racing world is all about scale.

Here is another way to look at it: In the Outlaw Pro Mod world (that's what I talk about a lot because that's what we try to race in), there are a healthy number of racers who will buy one, sometimes two brand new engines every year, plus spare parts for the season. This is easily $100,000 worth of equipment. In a year. If you're talking nitrous engines, double that figure. These are the guys who are pushing the R&D forward with these engines. Now, the biggest contingent of the racers will buy used engines or an engine with a combination of new/used components. These engines are usually sold for around $20-25,000. These guys somewhat support the development of new products, but not to the extent of the first group. Then there are the guys that buy up the REALLY used and baked stuff, the ten year old stuff, the nitro castoffs, the repaired and welded up a million times stuff. These guys are probably around 10-15% of the racers. Putting together an engine like this would probably cost 10-12K, give or take. These guys don't really contribute much in terms of funding new ideas and product development.

Now, in the Pontiac world, there are maybe six or eight racers, tops, that compete with this type of car. IN THE WORLD. That means that there are maybe one or two that will buy the newest, latest/greatest stuff, there's the biggest part of us in the middle (4 racers, maybe?) and a couple of guys who race on older parts.

So if the development of the Pontiac racing platform is developed from the same areas as other platforms, then the top dogs are going to drive ALL the development, the rest of us will benefit from it.

If we look at the nitro ranks, the small tire ranks, and the naturally aspirated Pro Stock style ranks, then we might be able to add four, maybe five more cars to the list of R&D "pushers".

This means that the development of the ENTIRE Pontiac racing engine platform is being driven by five to seven cars, on a good day. And the top shelf development fuels the parts for the bracket racers, the sportsman racers, the weekend warriors like us.

It's no wonder that development of the Pontiac racing engine is stagnant! Anyone who wants more and better parts for their race cars (or street cars!) better doggone well be behind those five to seven racers and the supporting companies who are paddling that boat......

Sorry for the rant, sorry for the long read.

Not really. LOL

[Dragncar]

Travis, sure am glad you guys are doing what you are doing. But that 3-4 tenths. Could a set of the 465+ cfm custom tigers make that up? Its at least 100 cfm more than the WPs.
Billet block, I know you guys took a look at the KRE billet block awhile back. Would just a billet block take care of cap walk ?
And the KRE Hemi heads, has anyone tried and seen what they could make in a blown nitro deal ?

[johnta1]

Let's get the 'rambling' really going!
(or flaming anyway )

Here is another way to look at it: In the Outlaw Pro Mod world (that's what I talk about a lot because that's what we try to race in), there are a healthy number of racers who will buy one, sometimes two brand new engines every year, plus spare parts for the season. This is easily $100,000 worth of equipment. In a year. If you're talking nitrous engines, double that figure. These are the guys who are pushing the R&D forward with these engines. Now, the biggest contingent of the racers will buy used engines or an engine with a combination of new/used components. These engines are usually sold for around $20-25,000. These guys somewhat support the development of new products, but not to the extent of the first group. Then there are the guys that buy up the REALLY used and baked stuff, the ten year old stuff, the nitro castoffs, the repaired and welded up a million times stuff. These guys are probably around 10-15% of the racers. Putting together an engine like this would probably cost 10-12K, give or take. These guys don't really contribute much in terms of funding new ideas and product development.

Why do you race in a class that has no rules but use antiquated equipment?

Why not use the newer higher flowing heads out there?

So if the development of the Pontiac racing platform is developed from the same areas as other platforms, then the top dogs are going to drive ALL the development, the rest of us will benefit from it.

It seems that some of the 'Top Dogs' don't drive the development, they just use stuff that has already been previously developed.

Only a few have designed, developed, and manufactured a better product that should really help the Pontiac racer.
But, too many of the 'old skool' people 'poo-poo' them and try everything in their power to bring these innovators down.

It's no wonder that development of the Pontiac racing engine is stagnant! Anyone who wants more and better parts for their race cars (or street cars!) better doggone well be behind those five to seven racers and the supporting companies who are paddling that boat......

Who in your opinion are these '5-7 racers?

It seems to me that most of the racers I see are not trying to get out of this stagnant pool.


Now for all the bashing.

[spartazoo]

It has always baffled me why the factions within the Pontiac community spend so much time and energy picking at others within the community. Instead of bringing everyone up to battle the bad guys, our intent is to bring everyone down so we can battle each other to keyboard races and one great weekend at Norwalk.

I don't have a dog in this fight really. I like to race and could care less who is faster and what head they are using. But one thing I can tell you, it is more fun beating a 66 Nova at the home track than keyboard racing another Pontiac here or beating one at Norwalk.

The Pontiac community is divided worse than the Republican party.

[ho428]

I road race, if it wasn't a labor of love I'd run an LS engine.

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Travis, sure am glad you guys are doing what you are doing. But that 3-4 tenths. Could a set of the 465+ cfm custom tigers make that up? Its at least 100 cfm more than the WPs.
Billet block, I know you guys took a look at the KRE billet block awhile back. Would just a billet block take care of cap walk ?
And the KRE Hemi heads, has anyone tried and seen what they could make in a blown nitro deal ?

Heads aren't going to give us 800 more horsepower. They would definitely change WHERE the engine makes power, which would really help. We need a complete change of car and engine package. One component alone will not do it.

We don't have an issue with head gasket seal or cap walk. None whatsoever. We couldn't ask for better performance from the block, other than the weight issue that goes with the iron block.

The KRE hemi heads are limited in terms of cam overlap because of the valve angles from what I understand.

[johnta1]

It has always baffled me why the factions within the Pontiac community spend so much time and energy picking at others within the community.

Why do you think that is?

I road race, if it wasn't a labor of love I'd run an LS engine.

Pontiacs are my labor of love.



Without Pontiac, I wouldn't have anything.

[johnta1]

Heads aren't going to give us 800 more horsepower.

Where else would the HP come from?

With better flowing heads, one could use better camshaft, thus more HP?
Which goes to needing the better induction setup, the better engine components to use the higher RPM/HP?

If the car is holding the performance back, that has nothing to do with the Pontiac engine?

[Travis Q]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Why do you race in a class that has no rules but use antiquated equipment?

Why not use the newer higher flowing heads out there?

It seems that some of the 'Top Dogs' don't drive the development, they just use stuff that has already been previously developed.

Only a few have designed, developed, and manufactured a better product that should really help the Pontiac racer.
But, too many of the 'old skool' people 'poo-poo' them and try everything in their power to bring these innovators down.

Who in your opinion are these '5-7 racers?

It seems to me that most of the racers I see are not trying to get out of this stagnant pool.

A lot of it boils down to money. It would take a big investment that neither me or Rodney have to do something different. But, if we had a Chevrolet, we could build a much better engine for the same money as is invested in what we have now. We're dummies for doing it, basically.

Name me one "higher flowing" set of PROVEN billet or solid cast aluminum heads that has been used successfully on a Pontiac - no valvetrain issues, no soft castings, no heads cracking into pieces when you turn the power up. I'll do it for you - THERE ARENT ANY. And we don't fall into the "top level" category, so we can't afford to be guinea pigs.

As for the 5-7 racers, I would say:

Eric & Mike in the nitro funny car
Bill Mellott
the Kauffmann P/S car
Lil Jack, with the new heads
the Picketts