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Old 08-25-2020, 11:49 AM
dstewart7397 dstewart7397 is offline
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Default Efi and E85

Im thinking of going E85 on my 72 gto with a 428 power plant now my question is what fuel system is the right one? I know they all have their pros and cons but for you guys who are running them what works and works good for you?

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Old 08-25-2020, 12:54 PM
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Really depends on the power you're trying to make. A good starting point is to look at your power potential, then up-size your fuel system by 30% to accommodate the added fuel requirements.

What's the engine build look like? E85 itself has less btu that gasoline, so simply using it in an engine that could otherwise be fed gasoline doesn't typically have much advantage to it. Where you start to see an advantage in power production is when the engine's compression ratios are raised to take advantage of the better cooling properties of ethenol as well as it's higher knock tolerance.

If you're engine is coming in like a typical street build with aluminum heads in the 10 to 10.5:1 range or an iron head in the 9 to 9.5:1 range, you may want to simply consider premium pump fuel. That's really kind of outside of your question though, but something to consider nonetheless.

What I would recommend is a stainless steel tank designed for EFI ready operation with internal baffling and sump. You also want an E85 compatible fuel pump. Walbro makes a 400lph unit that when matched with e85, should supply enough fuel for about 700 hp at the tire. Because this is ethanol I would recommend a PTFE hose or stainless steel hard line. Stay away from mild steel, aluminum or aluminized steel hard lines. The problem with ethanol is it's pretty hydroscopic compared to gasoline, so it absorbs water from the air around it which then rots your fuel system. At power levels up to about 650hp to the tire, a -6an line size for both the feed and the return should be enough. Getting close to that or above and you're going to want a -8an line on the car.

If this car isn't going to be driven regularly, e85 is probably not the best option because of its hydroscopic nature. That's when you really see issues crop up, especially if the car is going to be sitting for a month at a time with a half full tank and why you specifically want stainless steel here.

The other consideration here is fuel quality at the pump. While it's called e85, the governmental standard is a minimum of 79% of the standard for denatured ethanol in the fuel. That means that when you fill up at the pump, you could be pumping as low as E67 or even higher than E85. My research indicates that most areas that have plentiful supply and demand will have fairly consistent ethanol percentages between 70% to 85% depending on the season. You'll see e70 in the winter and e85 in the summer and depending on demand will have some of that mixing together during periods where the mix is changing seasonally. You may wish to go test several fuel stations before making this switch to see how much actual ethanol content is in the fuel.

The obvious issue here is tuning. There are three basic items that can be done for tuning here. The most convenient, but most difficult to setup initially is to run an EFI system along with an ethanol sensor that is able to make changes on the fly based on what's going through the sensor. Another option is to tune for a specific ethanol content and purchase that fuel from a supplier like VP that guarantees an accurate blend. The third option is to test the fuel each time you fill up and manually adjust the tune as necessary based on the quality of fuel you're pumping. Finally you can tune the car conservatively, meaning you tune it for a somewhat higher ethanol content mix and don't worry too terribly much if you get a tank that has more gasoline in the mix. You'll end up running a bit fat in this circumstance when the ethanol content is lower, but on some EFI systems like a Sniper or FiTech, it's really the only way to do it where you don't have to purchase and store fuel yourself.

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Old 08-25-2020, 01:13 PM
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The ethanol content sensor is the easiest way. PTFE lined hose or equivalent. Size the injectors properly for your power level. Size the fuel pump properly for your power level. Use a post pump filter that is ethanol compatible.

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Old 08-25-2020, 02:17 PM
dstewart7397 dstewart7397 is offline
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The way the rotating assembly and the 6x heads with a 4 way valve job is my compression should be somewhere around 11.1 12.1 roughly guessing. I was looking at the snyper efi xflo system which seems to be the best fit the car will be drove weekly during the summer and fuel will be drained in the winter during storage. Im shooting for somewhere around 800 hp na but that is always subject to change.

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Old 08-25-2020, 04:08 PM
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Some more information about the complete combination would be helpful. It kind of sounds like you're still flying a bit blind here if you don't yet have a compression ratio that the engine is going to wind up at, or that you're specifically shooting for.

Although I don't necessarily think it's impossible, getting 800hp from a 428 that utilizes worked factory heads is going to require more than 12:1 compression and it's going to likely need so much cam that you can pretty much forget about using any of the Sniper/Fitech type fuel injection units. While there are a handful of people that have gotten these things to run on engines with as low as a couple inches of vacuum, it's pretty well documented that if you're engine produces less than 5-6" of vacuum, you're going to spend more time fighting with the units and you're better off at that point with something like a Holley Dominator.

Now a 428 with a 260-280cfm stock type head, 12:1 compression and a cam in the 240ish range @ 50. That'd probably be in the high 500 to low 600 hp range and well within the grasp of what a Sniper could handle on pump gas or e85. You'd need the 8 injector model here to support that power on e85 and I'd run the Walbrow 450lph pump, F90000267. It's pretty basic setup from there. If the car will be stored without fuel and will be driven pretty regularly in the driving season, I wouldn't be worried about going with a Tanks Inc tank, a good quality PTFE push lock style hose and an e-85 compatible filter and the Sniper unit.

The initial tune up with the Sniper/Fitech deal is trial and error with e85. They don't specifically have tuning changes that can be made for e85, you kind of have to fool them a bit. The most common way people are doing this is to add between 20-30% to their engine size to adjust for fueling requirements. This method effects all fueling globally and is going to add that same percentage of fuel for all the breakpoints you provide. You provide those afr requirement in standard gasoline scale. Your display will read out standard gasoline scale as well, but the system is actually using lambda, so it doesn't really care what fuel is being used. It's just looking for stoich where lamda =1.

You can of course go the route of providing accurate information to the ecu as far as engine size is concerned, then command different afr values based on e85 scale at the various breakpoints. This is generally not as favorable however because of the interpolation going on and the fact that the gas scale and e85 scale aren't a 1:1 ratio from each other. Most people do not opt to tune the systems like this as a result.

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Old 08-25-2020, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
Really depends on the power you're trying to make. A good starting point is to look at your power potential, then up-size your fuel system by 30% to accommodate the added fuel requirements.

What's the engine build look like? E85 itself has less btu that gasoline, so simply using it in an engine that could otherwise be fed gasoline doesn't typically have much advantage to it. Where you start to see an advantage in power production is when the engine's compression ratios are raised to take advantage of the better cooling properties of ethenol as well as it's higher knock tolerance.


If this car isn't going to be driven regularly, e85 is probably not the best option because of its hydroscopic nature. That's when you really see issues crop up, especially if the car is going to be sitting for a month at a time with a half full tank and why you specifically want stainless steel here.

The other consideration here is fuel quality at the pump. While it's called e85, the governmental standard is a minimum of 79% of the standard for denatured ethanol in the fuel. That means that when you fill up at the pump, you could be pumping as low as E67 or even higher than E85. My research indicates that most areas that have plentiful supply and demand will have fairly consistent ethanol percentages between 70% to 85% depending on the season. You'll see e70 in the winter and e85 in the summer and depending on demand will have some of that mixing together during periods where the mix is changing seasonally. You may wish to go test several fuel stations before making this switch to see how much actual ethanol content is in the fuel.
Do not know why everyone recommends the 400 L pump even with e-85 when the manufacturer even says it is not compatible with e-85.
Only the 450 pump is compatible of the two pumps.

From the manufacturer:
The Walbro 400 liter per hour (LPH) fuel pump is the ultimate solution for the high power NSX. ... The 450 liter per hour (LPH) E85 compliant fuel pump is compatible with either gasoline or E85 and offers a slight flow increase.

Tom V.

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Old 08-25-2020, 04:26 PM
dstewart7397 dstewart7397 is offline
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Oh im still flying blind and that is no doubt. I am new to the spark plug game. That is why it seems like im on the blind side. I am only going off of what I have been told about what I have. I purchased the block with just the bottom end and pistons. The fellow that i bought the motor off of threw in the heads. He also told me to go with a 4 way valve job and titanium valves and seats to go with the E85 setup.

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Old 08-25-2020, 04:33 PM
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Talk to Charlie66, He has been running E-85 with boost for years, HIGH BOOST).

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Old 08-25-2020, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Do not know why everyone recommends the 400 L pump even with e-85 when the manufacturer even says it is not compatible with e-85.
Only the 450 pump is compatible of the two pumps.

From the manufacturer:
The Walbro 400 liter per hour (LPH) fuel pump is the ultimate solution for the high power NSX. ... The 450 liter per hour (LPH) E85 compliant fuel pump is compatible with either gasoline or E85 and offers a slight flow increase.

Tom V.
Whoops that was just a typo. If you check my second post, I specifically reference the 450 pump and it's specific part number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstewart7397 View Post
Oh im still flying blind and that is no doubt. I am new to the spark plug game. That is why it seems like im on the blind side. I am only going off of what I have been told about what I have. I purchased the block with just the bottom end and pistons. The fellow that i bought the motor off of threw in the heads. He also told me to go with a 4 way valve job and titanium valves and seats to go with the E85 setup.

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So the first thing I would do is measure the piston to deck clearance on your block and have the chambers on your heads CC'd. Without chopping off some of the head surface, or having a domed piston, it's not possible to achieve 11:1 compression. Depending on the casting those 6x heads are advertised between 95-125 cc's. My guess is that yours unless altered are probably in the 100cc territory.

Assuming a best case scenario with the engine+.030, 95cc heads, having standard pistons with around 6-7cc valve reliefs, a felpro 1016 head gasket and zero deck, that puts your compression right at 9.0:1. In actuality a bit less since wallace racing's calculator doesn't take into account volume from the piston top to the compression ring, or any possible bore chamfers.

Even if I throw in a 4.25" stroke crank, this only gets to 9.5:1 compression. At that point, I wouldn't be looking at any of the hassles of trying to run e85. With proper cam selection this engine could be run on pump gas pretty easily and will likely make in the 400-475 hp range depending on what's actually done to those heads and the cam that is selected.

I hate to say it, but based on what you're saying here, it sounds like whoever you purchased this engine from was feeding you a line, which makes the whole thing very suspect. I'd be going over the bottom end and the heads with a fine tooth comb before the bottom and top end are mated and put into the car.

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Old 08-25-2020, 05:53 PM
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Something like the Terminator X, or MS(3 or Microsquirt) will be easier as they use a content sensor. Ive personally used this with MS3 and it works great. I put E85 in the tank after having tuned on regular fuel, fired the engine and the content sensor did exactly as it should. Plus you can use dual tables to fine tune. Trying to "fool" a system that isn't designed for ethanol could be costly in the end.

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Old 08-25-2020, 05:54 PM
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I would be very concerned with this deal based on some of the "recommendations" from the previous owner.

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Old 08-25-2020, 06:43 PM
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Something like the Terminator X, or MS(3 or Microsquirt) will be easier as they use a content sensor. Ive personally used this with MS3 and it works great. I put E85 in the tank after having tuned on regular fuel, fired the engine and the content sensor did exactly as it should. Plus you can use dual tables to fine tune. Trying to "fool" a system that isn't designed for ethanol could be costly in the end.
If you're tuning an engine on the ragged edge, yeah I definitely agree. Although fooling the ecu to dump additional fuel sounds pretty outragious, it's something that's been done to fairly good success both with the TBI based systems now as well as other variations of automotive tuning.

It's certainly doable and there's a slew of people running these things successfully on e85.

That said I thing right now for this thread, the point is moot. This gentleman's engine isn't going to be a good candidate for e85 anyhow.

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Old 08-25-2020, 07:00 PM
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Ok so with everything being said i should just stick to premium pump fuel? I also totally agree with the going though everything with a fine tooth comb . Also i should be more realistic with my hp numbers.

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Old 08-25-2020, 07:49 PM
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I would not just assume pump gas friendly out of hand. If you have the ability yourself cc a couple chambers on the heads to see how big they are. Measure the piston to deck height and plug those numbers into a compression calculator. If you don’t have the ability yourself, have a professional look it over. Spending a couple hundred now could save you several thousand later.

Cam choice plays a role but if you are coming in around 9.5:1 or less, the engine is absolutely pump gas capable.

And yeah you’ll need to temper your power expectations based on the parts it sounds like you have. 800 streetable hp NA is possible on these engines, but it requires more cubes, better heads and typically moderately large roller cams.

if the heads you have end up having the larger chambers, what that does is create an avenue for a streetable boosted application that would get you closer to your goals. An s480 turbocharger will make 800hp without batting an eye and in that setup, you could actually run it with e85 in lieu of an inter cooler.

It does sound like you need to do your diligence in the engine and what you have first however.

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Old 08-25-2020, 11:11 PM
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Thank you fellows for all of the insight and good information i will stay in touch on the next move.

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Old 08-25-2020, 11:27 PM
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If you plan to go efi, and you think there's a reasonable chance you'll ever run E85, then build the fuel system with that in mind. It doesn't cost that much more, and its less than doing it twice...

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Old 08-26-2020, 04:26 AM
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If you plan to go efi, and you think there's a reasonable chance you'll ever run E85, then build the fuel system with that in mind. It doesn't cost that much more, and its less than doing it twice...
THIS ^^^^

I just built a fuel system for a turbocharged 5.3L LS powered street car, the owner is expecting around 800hp to the tyre on low boost with e85. I setup his fuel tank with twin 450L pumps that are staged via the ECU. Modifying the pump hanger to stage the pumps is key for the street. The intention is to run -8 feed line to the rails and -6 return through the ethanol sensor in the return line. Have done this setup MANY times and the recipe just works every time. If the owner was going for 1200'ish with more boost on e85, i'd setup a 3rd pump in and bring it on with the second pump.
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Old 08-26-2020, 08:31 AM
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that's wicked set up, what cell and pump mount takes 3 pumps? twhat pumps? you figure roughly 400 wheelp hp per pump on the E? that cell looks ike it is too small for that kind of street horspower? will run out asap lol

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Old 08-26-2020, 10:11 AM
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It's a local AU company that makes the cell and hanger called Aeroflow. There's a few places over here that makes things like this, Raceworks is another I can think of. It's a 15gal cell so it will do the job pretty well. Pumps are 450L TI/Walbro pumps.

I have the exact same setup in my car except I set it up with 2x isolated negative terminals because my primary pump I run PWM courtesy of a Jaguar fuel pump controller to lower the fuel pressure at idle and cruise. Cuts down on heat and stress on the electrical system + the pump itself.

On a fairly dialled tune this 5.3 should get some pretty awesome mileage being a smaller motor and a fairly mild camshaft. I won't be tuning it but will probably get sucked into getting it running on the Haltech so it can be driven to the dyno hahaha

On corn juice I shoot for about 400-500 tire HP per pump being SUPER conservative. The data i've got on my own car running flex, some other cars - 1 running 9's N/A on E85, twin 044 Bosch pumps, plus the hub dyno data i've got on another car I helped put together a while ago has 2x Bosch 044 pumps running 14-15psi of boost through an S475 turbo on another 5.3 made 715hp to the ground on pump gas at about 600m elevation. Those pumps are around 270'ish L/hr at 60psi. His fuel curve was pretty fat and it would have made more power if we took some fuel out but being stock bottom end deal we didn't want to melt it to the ground because it had to be driven 200 miles to get home home
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