[punkin]

Hello all,

I received a call from my engine builder that the motor should be complete fairly soon. I've never had a complete motor built like this before and never witnessed a dyno session. Are there some things that I should be watchful for? Are there some smart questions I should ask?

Sorry for the noob question...first time for everything as they say.


Thanks

[RocktimusPryme]

My biggest advice would be to make sure all the details of both the build, and the dyno session get written down/printed out. Ring gaps, bearing clearances etc.

There is some random info from my dyno session now that I am sure was answered, but I didnt make sure I had recorded. Information is now lost to the broken synapses of my stupid memory. Or my parts paperwork just says "special flex plate". I wish I had a part number for that and my oil pan.

[punkin]

I'll be sure to ask. I'm also thinking I'll ask for a complete parts list but I'm not sure if that's asking for too much detail. I know in some industries you can't get deep parts details because then you can kind of reverse calculate where their costs are hiding and such.

Thank you.

[Chief of the 60's]

Uh, questioning an engine builder if he knows what he is doing is probably not a smart thing to do. After all, you are not only paying him for his service, you are paying him for his knowledge as well as his expertise and if you are paying him for that he obviously knows more than you or at least better at it.

As far as the dyno session goes..... If you've never been to one before, it is best to go with a strong, empty stomach as your engine will sound like its screaming for help. I suggest you watch some YouTube videos of engines and cars on a dyno to prepare yourself for what is to come.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Uh, questioning an engine builder if he knows what he is doing is probably not a smart thing to do.

I don't see anything written above suggesting that he question the builder's competence. Only thing suggested above is to obtain a detailed list of engine components and specs for posterity, which can be invaluable information down the road.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

I don't see anything written above suggesting that he question the builder's competence. Only thing suggested above is to obtain a detailed list of engine components and specs for posterity, which can be invaluable information down the road.

I suppose I mis-read RP's post. I took it as the OP should be questioning things like ring gap etc. However, that info won't do the OP any good down the road. And the OP is correct, many good performance builders keep their info tight to their chest.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I suppose I mis-read RP's post. I took it as the OP should be questioning things like ring gap etc. However, that info won't do the OP any good down the road. And the OP is correct, many good performance builders keep their info tight to their chest.

I dont see how asking for the details on parts or assembly is questioning anyone's ability. I also disagree that knowing the knitty gritty doesnt pay dividends. It always astounds me when someone pays for a pro to build their engine but they dont know their bearing clearances. How are you supposed to pick an oil viscosity without that knowledge? Also, say a couple years down the road you are thinking about a power adder. Knowing your ring gap, what head gasket was used, all can make a difference. Probably wont come up, but I would rather have knowledge and not need it than need it and not have it.

I wouldnt want to work with someone who was trying to actively hide something from me. Making power isnt exactly a secret sauce here in the information age. Most of us get pretty cookie cutter builds that are proven to work. There isnt much reason to be secretive aside from being shady. At least not until you get into things like Super Stock or F.A.S.T where onesie twosie numbers matter.

Look real world, especially on detailed parts lists, my builder up and died on me shortly after my motor was complete. I do know most of my build. But there are parts or details that would have helped me out down the road that I didnt get in print, and cant ask the dude about now. Its nothing he was trying to keep from me. I just didnt ask for it, and now I cant. Or I was told verbally and cant remember.

[Chief of the 60's]

My last builder is in the NHRA Hall of Fame. He don't tell you nothing and if you don't like it you'll be having it built somewhere else. Bearing clearance for oil? Ask. You probably won't have to though as a good builder will tell you what he wants you to put in HIS engine.

[RocktimusPryme]

If you are happy with that good for you I guess. I wouldn’t be. I don’t think a simple parts list is an unreasonable thing to ask for. There is a wide gap between asking a professional to narrate their head porting while you watch, and asking for a few install specs that could be useful later down the line.

[Chief of the 60's]

There is a reason why you pay someone to do something for you. When you are dealing with someone who is considered an "expert" there has to be a level of trust as well as respect. If a customer cannot do that then maybe that customer doesn't need someone that good and should just do the job themselves.

[64speed]

I look at it like this. I spent a lot of money on my engine build. I went when it was done and we broke it in. I supplied 99% of the parts so that info was not necessary to obtain. The parts I didn’t provide he gave me receipts for. I didn’t ask bearing clearance or ring gap. When we were done I asked him if he had any instructions. He said use Lucas or Valvoline VR1 oil for the first 5000 miles in 20w/50 and then after that switch to a good name brand synthetic but stick with 20/50. Lots of oil threads on here with people talking about oil weights. Seems heavy to me but he built the engine, he’s warrantying the engine, he gets to dictate oil choice.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I suppose I mis-read RP's post. I took it as the OP should be questioning things like ring gap etc. However, that info won't do the OP any good down the road. And the OP is correct, many good performance builders keep their info tight to their chest.

If a builder would not tell me the specs I ask for I would find a new one. Don't care if he is in any Hall of fame.
Ring gap would be useful down the road if he wanted to spray it. You are paying the guy and if you ask he should give it to you. Its not like you are asking how to port a set of heads.
Anyone who would hold on to basic info like ring gap and bearing clearances would not get a dime from me.
Besides, I pay machinists and head porters. Thats about it.

[Steve C.]

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Engine%...0checklist.pdf

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[RocktimusPryme]

Look, that got side tracked into a weird space. You are probably going to get a build sheet with most of this small stuff on it without asking. Apparently there is like one guy out there who doesnt do that. Chances are you know most of the parts bought anyway. All Im saying if make sure you have that info saved. If you get told things verbally write them down. Save your paper stuff to the computer so if it gets lost you still have copies.

Dont rely on memory. You never know when that stuff comes in handy. Plus its good for the community. If you have a good experience with a part or combination of parts, you can reference back and tell somebody in the future who is getting ready for their build.

[punkin]

Oh boy...

I had no idea the can of worms I might open with this. I thank EVERYONE for their perspectives and comments. I find each of them helpful.

I see where some tact would come into play when asking for some of this information. I'll likely phrase my requests from the standpoint of my servicing and maintaining the motor. I'll have to tread on that in a way that doesn't injure the ego and question their credibility.

I am keeping in mind that I didn't hire this shop to do basic machine work but it is truly a turn-key motor (fuel injection to flywheel) with all 100% new parts which they did source. I did also very recently discuss with him that I'm considering a supercharger and we did talk about ring gaps so this should be an easy discussion to have with him as well.

As for the actual dyno session...I've watched a bunch of them on uTube. I'm really looking forward to hearing this thing roar. Unless I'm missing something, the way I'm looking at it, he owns it until it's off his engine stand and on mine. I was wondering should I be asking questions like;

• Are they using corrected sea level numbers
• What was the AF ratio
• What was oil pressure
• What was fuel pressure
• What kind of oil was used during dyno, what kind of oil should I use in real world
• Should I be watchful for any hocus pocus (I'm don't know enough about the machines used)
• Are there "tricks" that they might use on the dyno to get numbers that won't be achievable off the stand...stuff like that.
• I asked the builder to target a horsepower number...should I expect it to meet/exceed? What if it falls short?

Thanks again everyone.

[steve25]

First and foremost, if you don't do such make sure the dyno operator is set up such that after break in water temp starts to get above 150F you yank the filter off and cut it open to inspect it well before any pulls are made to the motor!

[scott70]

I've had probably 6 engines built for me in my life and they all came with a breakdown of all the clearances, part numbers,etc. The one thing I would say is before you leave with the engine is to have them cut the oil filter open for an inspection. I made that mistake and luckily I took just the filter back to them before installing the engine and had them cut it open as to not blame me for cutting it open and possibly contaminating it. Yup there was a problem and I would have been pissed if I had installed it and had to pull it back out.

[Cliff R]

A dyno is a tool in the recipe of things and a good one. It gives the engine builder and the owner of the engine a chance to run-in the engine without having to install it in the vehicle.

You get to find out early if you have coolant or oil leaks, unusual noises, or if it's going to come apart because you missed something someplace.

What I do with my engines and I dyno just about every single one of them is to run it in for about 15-20 minutes and only shut it down if there is an issue of some sort like a big oil or water leak, ticking/knocking etc. I "static" time them and the dyno's electric fuel pump fills the carb so they fire up instantly and don't typically need any timing or fuel adjustments initially but I do look at them with a timing light to make sure things are close.

Before making the first pull I also shut it down and remove at least one valve cover to see if there is any evidence of something grinding itself up and putting millions of tiny metal specs in the oil. Check the oil level and look for metal and water contamination. I will remove the oil filter and cut it open if there is too much material pooling up on the heads or a glittery appearance when I look at the dipstick. If you find much more than some lint from a few shop towels in the filter the engine needs to come off the dyno and the pan removed to check things out a little further. If all is well follow the engine with a timing light and set the total timing before making a pull on it. Also check the throttle linkage for making it to full throttle (often overlooked).

You really don't need to have the vacuum advance hooked up for full throttle pulls but I leave them operational simply because the engine will behave better at light load during run-in. I never get all worried about power output as much as having mechanical issues with it. The numbers are arbitrary anyhow, and can vary considerably from one dyno to another. I've also never observed huge gains moving timing around from a good base setting or jetting the carb all over the map when they were pretty close right to start with. Those are things that can be done for bragging rights but keep in mind that the dyno is a static test in near ideal conditions such as incoming air, cooling media, no heat soak, perfect fuel delivery, etc. With that said another good reason not to chase the tune all that much until the engine gets installed in the vehicle and all the accessories hooked up, etc........Cliff

[Steve C.]

How to Read a Dyno Sheet / Analyze Your Engine Data

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/reading-dyno-sheet/


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[Formulajones]

Points for you for putting your engine on the dyno!! So many people miss that opportunity and then have many unanswered questions that end up on the internet where it tends to go down a worm hole.

As already mentioned, it's great for finding issues before it goes in the car, and finding what the engine likes or doesn't like for best power production, and answers all those questions everyone has.

Hopefully the operator isn't one that hides the BSFC and LBS. per hour numbers from the dyno sheets. You see a lot of that on the internet, and I'm always skeptical now of those results. Those numbers can be used to see what the actual power output was before the correction factor is figured in to make sure the final numbers aren't inflated.

Would love to hear more about the build and the results. Best of luck