Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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  #21  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:52 AM
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post by 4zpeed: Thought this was relevant, "What is a BOV" ?

How not to look like a idiot on the internet !

https://www.enginelabs.com/news/vide...ff-valve-does/

Thanks for all the information Tom.


Frank

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Old 06-07-2019, 07:53 AM
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Hello 4zspeed,

A Blow Off Valve can be two different things depending on the application.

Early Paxton Supercharger Bonnets used to have a spring and simple valve on the Bonnet (Carb hat) that opened when the Boost Pressure reached a certain amount and the excess airflow from the Boosting device, in this case a Centrifugal Supercharger just pumped the excess air back into the atmosphere. Wasted work by the supercharger but a simple air control for Boost pressure. The Paxton Bonnet (not the Box or enclosure) also had a valve that bypassed the supercharger and let idle air into the carb. Once the supercharger made a given amount of airflow to the bonnet , that valve sealed the hole and the bonnet now saw pressurized air. That valve is in some ways like the modern By-pass Valve used on superchargers that uses a manifold signal mine to open or close the valve.

Tom V.

The other example of a Blow-off Valve is a modern Burst Panel on a supercharged or Turbocharged Intake Plenum. You get a high pressure spike and the Burst Panel blows open and saves the boosting device and engine from possibly harming the driver.

Think we have it covered now 4zpeed, thanks to you and thanks to Bart for the proper method to transfer the info.

Tom V

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Old 06-07-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
A disadvantage of the Belt Driven or gear driven devices is that the Supercharger drive parasitic losses are now added to the engines drive losses. In some cases that can be over 100 additional hp at max boost pressures. So your boosted 1400 HP engine does not transmit that 1400 HP to the drivetrain, it only transfers 1300 HP to the drivetrain.



Tom V.

Post by Eric Larson:

The Gates engineer that is the liaison for the NHRA big show cars tells me that they use about 1500 hp to turn their superchargers.

Assuming a simple ratio of power levels, our Boss Bird supercharger might be taking 400-ish hp to run.

So the crankshaft, pistons and block "see" 400 more horsepower than the transmission and rearend receive.

The SSI blower dyno uses a BBC to run the blowers.

Eric

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Old 06-07-2019, 07:55 AM
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post by 4zpeed:

Thanks for the response Tom, if I ever get a Turbo setup on the Goat its possible I'll need a Burst Panel in my Huggies.

I owned both 86 and 87 Thunderbird Turbo Coupes, although only 2.3 L (140 cu in) the 87 at 190 hp and 5 spd. was a real pleasure to drive, especially in the mountains.

I use to traveling allot for work therefore ran many different cars, for the size and weight these two had the best performance and mileage by far, top end 140 + mph.

I remember the size of the T Birds Turbo, (a bit dinky), but after your explanation, and the Compressor Maps I now understand how it must correspond to the Power Plant.

Edit: Not to take anything from the 2.3 in the 86 at 155 hp, I often thought it ran better, possible it had more Boost than the 87 ? I didn't own them at the same time.


Thanks Again,
Frank

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Old 06-07-2019, 07:58 AM
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Question/Post by GTO GEORGE:
Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE View Post
Any roots supercharger engine dynoed at 1,400 HP WILL be 1,400 HP, there is NO added loss from the belt after the fact!
There are lots of different roots type superchargers out there........2 lobe......3 lobe........ screw types, hell the list goes on!

GTO George

AT SOME POINT I PLAN ON COVERING THE SCREW TYPE SUPERCHARGERS, GEORGE.

There seems to be some confusion on your part, the dyno number is what is measured on the load cell. If you read 1400 hp on the load cell, that is the force (torque times rpm divided by 5252) after the parasitic losses from other things. Heat losses, Supercharger losses, etc. We are talking about what the ENGINE is actually making for HP.

You say, you can't measure that number because the supercharger is driven by the engine.
On our Ford Cells (Two Dynos per cell) I could very easily drive the supercharger with one engine on the first dyno and feed a second engine on the second dyno boost pressure and see what that engine actually is making for HP for any given level of boost pressure. Then put the Boost System on the other engine and read that load cells number and you have the actual parasitic loss for the supercharger.

Tom V

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:00 AM
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Reply to post by GTO George by Eric Larson:

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE View Post
Yes but if your Boosted engine is dynoed at 1,400hp its 1,400 not 1,300 because of the HP it take top drive the blower. The HP loss is already in the Dyno reading.

GTO George
True but the engine is actually making 1500 hp and only delivering 1400 to the driveline

Eric

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:02 AM
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reply to post by GTO george by Eric Larson

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE View Post
So what YOU are saying is if you dyno a boosted engine and it makes 1,400hp then you bolts it in a car it will make less.......thats what you are saying. NOW the drive train will eat up HP...thats why a Chassis dyno is truer HP wise but thats sure for every engine combo.


GTO George

In our hypothetical case:

pistons create 1500 hp
1400 hp of that goes to the flywheel and 100 hp goes to run the blower
after transmission and gear losses, the 1400 flywheel hp shows up as maybe 1300 hp at the axles. The missing 100 hp lost in the drivetrain shows up as waste heat.


Eric

Reply by GTO George:

OK you win.

GTO George

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:04 AM
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Here is a air power formula that is commonly used by the boost industry:

As long as you have this formula you can make comparisons and get the right HP numbers. =0.24*((120 lbs/min)*(545 )*(1.816326531(0.286)-1)/.55)*(.023575639)

Note 1 Lb(air mass) makes 10 hp so 120 lbs/min = 1200 hp

TV

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  #29  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:05 AM
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The engine consumes a given amount of fuel and air and converts that into work.
The problem is you cannot recover and use all of that energy that was produced by the fuel.
A rule of thumb is that roughly 33% of the energy produced by the fuel is absorbed into the cooling system.
Another 33% of the energy from the fuel is lost out of the exhaust.
The remaining 33% of the fuel energy is normally used to propel the vehicle down the road. Transmitted thru the Flex Plate or the clutch to the Trans and driveline/tires.

In your case, you have another item taking energy from the fuel energy available.
YOUR SUPERCHARGER and the BELT DRIVE SYSTEM. Testing has shown than that number is approximately 100 hp on a 1400 hp dynoed engine. So as Eric posted the energy that the fuel actually produced was 1500HP to push the pistons down.
100 HP was taken away to drive the supercharger, that left 1400 hp that was read on the dyno load cell.

The engine could have produced even more horsepower if some of the energy lost out the exhaust headers was used to drive a turbocharger vs your roots supercharger.

The same boosted engine might have shown 1600 hp vs 1400 hp on the load cell.

That is why turbochargers are more efficient at using the available fuel energy vs a belt driven or crank front drive supercharger system.

Most will understand what Eric Posted. I basically said the same thing.

Tom V.

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  #30  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:07 AM
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Post by Eric Larson:

<sigh> I'm probably going to regret posting but I can't help myself.

This topic does in fact, include turbos since the OP constructed it that way

Expanding on the hypothetical engine example and using Tom's rule of thumbs for energy distribution (33%/33%/33%).

Both hypothetical engines with pressurized intakes burn fuel that releases 4500 hp of energy. Before accounting for the energy to compress the intake, the division of energy is:

1500 hp (33%) get dumped to cooling system as waste heat
1500 hp gets dumped out the exhaust as waste heat
1500 hp is available as mechanical energy twisting the crank.


We've already assumed it takes 100 hp to compress the intake' regardless of the method.

A belt-driven supercharger subtracts that 100 hp from the crankshaft, leaving 1400 hp to show up on the dyno at the flywheel.

A turbo subtracts that 100 hp from the waste heat of the exhaust; leaving 1400 hp of waste heat leaving the exhaust and the full 1500 hp of mechanical crankshaft energy shows up at the flywheel on the engine dyno.

That's why turbo engines are more efficient at producing power at the flywheel for a given amount of fuel burned. Other advantages exist for using a supercharger but that's an entirely different discussion.

Eric

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:07 AM
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Post by 4zpeed:

I'm glad you couldn't, Thanks Eric !

I understood that, actually it makes perfect sense.


Frank

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:08 AM
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You should not regret ANYTHING Eric, You are passing on Valid Information to the members on hos it really works.

Some of the disadvantages of the basic Roots system for years was the RPM limitation of the basic device. The manufacturers said that the supercharger rpm limit was 14000 supercharger rpm. So with a 2 to 1 belt step-up ratio that limits the engine rpm to 7000 rpm max. That also limits the size of the Drive Pulley Tooth Count vs the Supercharger Pulley Tooth Count. If you are spinning the engine to 6400 rpm then the supercharger rpm is 12,800 rpm so you still have some "whiggle" room on the Pulley Ratios.

Screw Superchargers, Like the Whipple and Lysholm Supercharger (not twisted rotor Roots Superchargers) have a higher rpm limit. They can run as high as 18,000 Street Supercharger rpm with high durability. The 5.0 Liter Whipple Supercharger (61 cubic inches times 5 = 305 cubic inches of volume per revolution is smaller vs the basic 6-71 roots supercharger but has a couple of advantages. Higher RPM, (18,000+) and Internal Compression of the air charge so they are more efficient in moving the air into the engine. Screw Supercharger have been outlawed in some classes of racing in the past. Race screw blowers can turn 24,000-26000 rpm. There are at times rules tacked on to screw supercharger that roots superchargers do not have to meet.
So there are a LOT more Roots units out there vs the Screw superchargers. It might take 600 hp to drive a top notch Roots car supercharger and the same car with a screw blower system might take 150 hp to drive the supercharger. That leaves 450 more HP going thru the driveline and some cars are not capably of handling that extra 450 hp.


The original 6-71 diesel supercharger had a rotor length of 15" The 8-71 had a rotor length of 16" and the 19" long rotor supercharger is called a 14-71. So the numbers can be confusing at times.

Tom V.

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:09 AM
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Nice article here on different boosting units.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/supe...on-style-ride/

Some pics below of the Roots supercharger parts, the twisted rotors, and a end view of the rotors .

Tom V.

Again you will have to look at the pics yourself.

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:25 AM
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gain, rather than take a lot of time typing info, I will provide a link to a website that has really good information and their site explains stuff and how it works very well.

One of these sites is called RB Racing. They are a bunch of Bonneville Salt Flats Racers.
Here is the link:

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

They have a nice simple way to explain how to read a compressor map, be it for a Turbo or a Supercharger.

Some of the words from the site:

"

Operating characteristics: The compressor operating behaviour is generally defined by maps showing the relationship between pressure ratio and volume or mass flow rate. The useable section of the map relating to centrifugal compressors is limited by the surge and choke lines and the maximum permissible compressor speed.

Surge line: The map width is limited on the left by the surge line. This is basically "stalling" of the air flow at the compressor inlet. With too small a volume flow and too high a pressure ratio, the flow can no longer adhere to the suction side of the blades, with the result that the discharge process is interrupted. The air flow through the compressor is reversed until a stable pressure ratio with positive volume flow rate is reached, the pressure builds up again and the cycle repeats. This flow instability continues at a fixed frequency and the resultant noise is known as "surging".

Choke line: The maximum centrifugal compressor volume flow rate is normally limited by the cross-section at the compressor inlet. When the flow at the wheel inlet reaches sonic velocity, no further flow rate increase is possible. The choke line can be recognised by the steeply descending speed lines at the right on the compressor map. "

They also have "calculators" where you can put in your info and get back a number that will be "close enough" in most cases.

They have links so all of the Turbo and Supercharger big name manufacturers.

They have great illustrations and cut-aways of different boost devices.

A lot of info on the OEM boosting devices. It is an older website though so maybe not too much info on tyhe newest Turbo from Precision Turbo or Borg Warner. (Borg Warner also owns KKK Turbochargers (Germany). They call the company 3K now.

Last but not least they give advice on boosting. They call this "SECRETS"
in one of their "TABS" on the website.

Advice in SECRETS:

1. Study Sir Harry Ricardo's work, The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine (multiple editions)

and you will find it's unlikely you will do anything that's new, and if you don't read it YOU PROBABLY WILL DO EVERYTHING WRONG.

2. Study Charles Fayette Taylor's two volume The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and

Practice (M.I.T. Press) and realize for a second time you don't know what you are doing.

3. Read anything that Smokey Yunick wrote...Then try to figure out what he did that he didn't

write about. Smokey died May 2001 from complications related to Lukemia...he left us a three volume set of books

covering his life, racing and inventions. They didn't say you couldn't.

4. WHEN AN OEM SPENDS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON A RACING ENGINE PROGRAM TRY TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY DO.

Don't ask them, they won't tell you anyway.

5. Most experts aren't.

6. RESEARCH is the difference between SPECULATION and INVESTMENT.

7. Just because SOMEONE GOES FAST doesn't mean you should do whatever you think they did.

This path assumes THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING, WHICH ISN'T NECESSARILY THE CASE.
Take this path and you will be guaranteed second place.

8. Test, Test, Test.

9. A new engine never makes too much power.

10. If you don't do dynamometer development plus actual real world testing you will fail.

11. Document everything. If you don't, you will repeat mistakes and learn nothing.

12. There is no end to "free" if that is what you charge. This goes with "It is best to deal with enemies, and not friends, because you know exactly where you stand".

Tom V.

I removed the Eat Chit and die part of the RB racing post. You can read it if you go to their website. TV

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  #35  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:28 AM
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Basic on different types of superchargers.
Back in the 1960s, there were a lot of supercharger designs out there: Paxton Superchargers, Roots Superchargers, Bob Keller was working with Turbochargers, and there was a company that made Axial Flow Superchargers.

The only real one I ever saw up close was owned by "Big Bill" Klausing (whose family owned a Tool and Die Shop over in Oak Park Michigan). Bill was always finding COOL STUFF. So he had this 4 CARBURETOR Axial Supercharger for a Pontiac Engine.

I think it had 10 compressor stages.

The link below is for a guy on the internet who was also interested in Axial Superchargers and eventually found a CNC Shop that could make the parts for him.
Here is a link to his Info. https://www.axialflow.com/history.htm

Some people in the old days used to call the units "Latham Superchargers" when they were used on automotive applications. They used (as I posted above) 1 barrel Carter Side Draft Carburetors. A very cool "look" on a Pontiac Engine.

Here is a video of a Latham Supercharger installed on a Pontiac Engine. This may even be Bill's old set-up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3Wo-mlTZIw

Tom V.

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:32 AM
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The Boosting device does set the Horsepower Capability.

Be it a Vortech "S-Trim" supercharger that is rated at 675 HP or a Vortech YS-i Supercharger rated at 1200 HP. The YS-i unit is smaller, easier to install, can work with the latest intake manifold designs, (not stuck with a 1960s design), and and can run a lot cooler vs the Roots for the same HP levels. Also you can easily install an inter-cooler that would allow even more HP. Vs a Roots where custom fabrication, from a company like Gale Banks, would be required to come close to making that happen. $$$$

Tom V

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:33 AM
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Post by GTOGEORGE:

What’s really important when you finally decide to go with a PA is to read books.....watch racers and ask questions ! Going PA is not cheap hp never is!

GTO George

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Old 06-07-2019, 08:34 AM
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Today, some information about Turbocharging.

Turbochargers have been around for a very long time. They are used in Millions of vehicle and marine applications every year.

A Turbocharger is a Exhaust Driven Air Compressor mounted on the engine.
The assembly consists of three basic parts. A Compressor Cover, A Turbine Housing, and a "CHRA". A CHRA is a "CENTER HOUSING ROTATING ASSEMBLY.

A CHRA IS COMPOSED OF A COMPRESSOR WHEEL, A TURBINE WHEEL, A CAST IRON SUPPORT HOUSING THAT CONTAINS THE TURBO BEARINGS, A OIL DRAIN SYSTEM, AND IN SOME CASES A WATER COOLING SYSTEM.

The Turbocharger CHRA which stands Center Hub Rotating Assembly is the component that incorporates the shaft that connects the compressor and the turbine. The CHRA also houses a bearing system to support the rotating shaft with minimal fiction. This is usually a ball-bearing or thrust-bearing system. A constant flow of pressurized engine oil keeps the bearings lubricated. The ball-bearing system is more efficient than a thrust-bearing system as it generates less heat and uses less engine oil. They are designed to handle high speeds and also reduce turbo lag.

The CHRA also implements a cooling system to remove the heat generated within the turbocharger. It can be air-cooled or water-cooled. A water-cooled CHRA has an inlet and outlet for the coolant to circulate inside the assembly. The coolant keeps the lubricating oil thick and cool, and prevents the engine oil from coking, a destructive distillation process that leaves a layer of carbon deposits in the housing assembly. Due to the high temperatures generated within the turbo unit, oil coking is one of the common causes of turbo failure.

Other causes include coolant and oil leaks, both of which can affect the efficiency of your turbocharger. The shaft that connects the impeller and turbine can also become faulty or damaged due to improper balancing, inadequate lubrication or excessive overheating. If you notice that your engine's performance is lower than normal or if your exhaust smoke is black or has a trace blue in it, it's a possibility that the CHRA is at the root of the problem. You should replace any defective part of your Turbocharger CHRA at the earliest to avoid any possible damage to your engine and your turbocharger.

Unless you have a Ball Bearing CHRA (Racing Part typically) you will have a unit that uses sleeve bearings and a Thrust Washer (works the same way as a Thrust Bearing in a engine). If you try to run too high of a Pressure Ratio on the Turbocharger the Thrust Bearing wears and then the Compressor Blades can contact the Compressor Cover which damages both parts. This is where the more expensive Ball Bearing Turbos really shine.

Borg Warner does a nice job in explaining the Bearing system of their Turbochargers.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/prod...ingSystem.aspx

Tom V

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  #39  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:35 AM
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This is some really old data, Over 10 years old, but Mr Briggs, in his presentation said that there were 6.3 MILLION Turbochargers per year produced for passenger cars/light trucks, 4.8 Million for Diesel Vehicles and 1.5 Million for gas Engines), as compared to 260,000 for all Gas mechanically (belt or gear) driven Superchargers.

Today Things are a lot different to do a comparison between Mr Briggs early data and production data today.

Years ago we were happy as could be if we sold 15,000 Ford Trucks with the Supercharger on them. This would be on the old Lightning Truck.
(I was the Program Manager for the very first Lightning Truck, but it was Naturally Aspirated.)

Some years later the Roots Supercharged version was produced. Again a low volume deal. Mr Briggs info says 260,000 total belt driven Boosted Engines when he wrote his manual.

Ford in 2015, produced their 5,000,000th Ecoboost (Turbocharged) vehicle. See Picture.

The 1.0L ECOBOOST engine (sold mostly in Europe) was a three-cylinder engine. It was a multiple award-winning engine, earning Engine Technology International’s International Engine of the Year honors three years in a row.

In 2017 Ford was again awarded International Engine of Year (for Engines Under 1.0 L) with an almost completely reconfigured version of the Ecoboost 1.0. Although thermodynamically similar to the old Ecoboost 1.0, the new engine features cylinder deactivation under low-load conditions. A new dual-mass flywheel and a vibration-damping clutch disc help neutralize engine oscillations when running on two cylinders [21]. Production started in 2018. That engine was the last Ecoboost engine I worked on.

Production Volumes for the Ford Turbocharged vehicles per year could reach 2 million.

Turbocharged Engines to the Front, my friends.

GM still continues to build low volume (Corvette and Cadillac belt driven Boosted Engines).

So my point of this post today is performance is back but even on production vehicles with most of that production being Turbos.

Mike Briggs was a Belt Driven Boost Guy. He retired years ago, for a reason. Turbos were the high demand Boosting device.

Tom V.

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  #40  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:38 AM
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Post by 69GTO

Here’s a file on Marty.. printed some 20 years ago

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...0&d=1559863609

Tom V.

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