[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by abefromen

Close. It was '66

Originally Posted by HaloMedic

Thanks I didn't think I was the only one here that caught that

Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer

No, you weren't.

Oops. Sorry. '65 guy, here.

Point is still valid, though (ie, easier to clone a '64 or '65).

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Also, the removal and resale of a VIN is indeed a Federal crime, and, if I am correct, a felony. Not good.

You are correct.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MescaBug

Maybe he doesnt know you cant do that.

Why always suspect thievery and fraud???

It's illegal regardless of the intent.

As the saying goes "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

K

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

It's illegal regardless of the intent.

As the saying goes "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

K

1st: "Book Him Danno!" http://youtu.be/uVz_kJpv-Fs

2nd: Cue Theme Song http://youtu.be/AepyGm9Me6w

3rd: Congrats to self for "Another Job Well-done"

[silverbullet07]

Most laws I have read seems to always point if they remove or alter the vin to commit fraud. It looks like he cut a piece of metal that he needed to salvage his restoration project now has this left from the donor car.

Now if someone buys this and place this vin on another vehicle, that person is committing fraud. I don't see where the seller is doing anything wrong. That frame may not be the actual frame that goes with this vin but how are we to speculate that from here.

Seems we are speculating guilty before the trial.

Section B - US Code http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511

[GT182]

He also removed the tag from the firewall. That is wrong too. It wouldn't have been quite so bad if he'd left that one alone. Both removed is wrong no matter what.

This says it all:

18 U.S. Code § 511 - Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who—
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or

(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.

[silverbullet07]

But section b allows it to repair or replace you got to read the whole article when it pertains to law.

(b)
(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

[72projectbird]

Its not that big of a deal. Stuff like this happens a lot, usually its not on Ebay for everyone to see, but it happens a lot. Sometimes its shady business, but other times its out of necessity. As long as you do it right, you're in the clear.

Example: Does everyone think people who buy new Dynacorn bodies go through the hassle of getting a state issued vin? Hell naw, just remove and replace the original.

Not that I would ever condone this activity

Its just a piece of metal with numbers and letters on it.

[Jack Ferris]

Correct me of I'm wrong but Kevin Marti reproduces the vin and trim tags for Mustangs as long as you provide him the original. I don't know about other states but in UT unless there is a reason to believe the car was involved in a theft, law enforcment could care less.

[silverbullet07]

There are several people that reproduces trim tags. People just like to create drama.

[Ben M.]

Nothing wrong about removing the trim tag, it contains zero legal information used for ID purposes. Many cars just use screws to secure it.

Removing the VIN comes down to intent. Remove it for restoration purposes and it's allowed under law. Remove it for any other reasons and the law might get involved, even if just to issue you a new state-assigned VIN.

[NBF823]

Mines currently off the dash - the vin, and the trim both. My cowl was toast. I'll weld it back on soon.

Don't worry, you'll know I messed in there by the roll cage. I have no plans to sell.

[The Boss]

Mine is off my 69 RA IV GTO

[Trulyvintage]

Originally Posted by shook1

I found this auction for a GTO with practically nothing left. He removed the vin plate, and shows a picture of it with the title. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-GTO-...US_Cars_Trucks

As has been noted in earlier posts - it comes down to intent.

That auction you noted might be for the VIN number(s) and title if a title was offered.

It is illegal to sell a title and/or VIN intended to be used for another vehicle.

It is a common practice for Model T autos that got to be so prevalent and profitable
the listings were referred to as " historical documents ".

Not uncommon for a Buyer purchase a " project vehicle " off of ebay,
then ask the Seller to remove the VIN numbers and mail them to
to the Buyer along with the title ...

Had that happen to at least one vehicle I went to pick up ....

Not a good idea to ever remove a VIN number off a vehicle
unless you own it & are planning on putting back on after restoration.

It all goes to intent.

Removal and/or tampering of a VIN number with intent to defraud
or mislead should be considered a crime ....


Jim

[Jeff Hamlin]

SOLD, $2125.00... NEXT!
look for a new '67 soon

[Teej]

I will say again, I believe we should keep a running list of VINs that we come across for sale. Even just a separate thread in the stolen/missing section with a sticky. I know I've come across probably half a dozen.

(Of course the last time I mentioned one I saw for sale on ebay, I got warnings in my PM.)

[SnakeEyes]

There was a guy who was selling 1st gen F body cowl tags and VIN plates recently. He had 1 Camaro and five Firebirds. One firebird had the hidden Vin set also.

The guys at Team Camaro put the VIN and body numbers in the thread for anyone that searches them in the future, will pull up that thread

I recommend people do that anytime you something like that, so there will he a record in the future on it.

[shook1]

We could start a vin list, Except this guy did not reveal the vin numbers. He even put tape over the plates to hide the numbers in the pictures.

Ebay allowed this sale even though they have a clear rule against selling frames with titles, or titles without a complete car, or vin plates, or rivets. I guess they don't care, as long as they get paid.

The guy cut the door post to get the plate off. What's that about? Even if you bought that frame and firewall to legitimately restore it, there isn't much left to prove that what's left of that body was truly the same HO GTO for those plates and title, and not a Tempest, a Lemans, or base model GTO with ac.

I cannot quote which 1967 GTO models are more or less valuable, but suppose, if you will, the seller had two GTOs. One HO, and another even rarer, more valuable GTO, perhaps a special color or something. Suppose what's left of the GTO body from the auction was the more valuable GTO, while the HO plates and papers in the auction belonged to a more complete, yet less valuable HO car. In theory the plates could have been swapped for a quick "restoration" of the more valuable car. Then whatever is left is sold at auction, as a GTO HO car. Of course this is just a fun theory, and I in no way insinuate that it happened.

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

SOLD, $2125.00... NEXT!
look for a new '67 soon

Build your own 74 GTO!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Pontiac...p2056016.l4276

[SnakeEyes]

For the above record:
Tags removed to sell on eBay:
VIN 2Z17B4L113562
TRIM Body L 124640