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Old 04-09-2020, 09:51 AM
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You can always buy a 60 psi pump and sell the 80 psi pump.

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Old 04-09-2020, 09:55 AM
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Here is my offer to help you out.
The Butlers are friends of mine.

You remove your 80 psi spring cup and long spring and send them to me and I will remove the 60 psi spring cup and spring from a new Melling Pontiac oil pump and send the parts to you when this virus stuff is over with. I have several new 60 psi pumps and do not need another new pump but just trying to help you out. OR BUY another pump and sell yours as mentioned in the last post.

PM me if interested.

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Old 04-09-2020, 09:57 AM
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Tom Vaught...I'm in the "motor city," or as we affectionately call it, "the D." So cold mornings would be an issue, though really just the occasional start ups while in storage during the winter.

Jay S....that distributor gear is getting to be one of my larger concerns using the 80psi.

Butler Performance doesn't have the spring needed to convert the 80psi to a 60psi. The hunt continues.

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Old 04-09-2020, 10:22 AM
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Sounds great Tom thank you. I'll message you privately.

Melling doesn't have the spring either as it turns out.

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Old 04-09-2020, 10:25 AM
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Cliff...I think I'll make a bracket thanks for the info. I was already leaning in that direction but wanted some advice.

I'm also inclined to get that hardened drive shaft. Probably not necessary, but just a little bit of added insurance.

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Old 04-09-2020, 11:20 AM
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Fwiw i have been turning my race engine close to 9000rpm for years with 65'ish psi, no need for 80psi imo.

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Old 04-09-2020, 11:42 AM
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Default PAPER OR COPPER GASKET?

While we're on the subject of oil pumps, would anyone suggest a copper oil pump gasket over a standard paper one?

  #28  
Old 04-09-2020, 11:52 AM
Singleton Singleton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SusieQ View Post
While we're on the subject of oil pumps, would anyone suggest a copper oil pump gasket over a standard paper one?
Never used a copper gasket, but I have been using one of these O-ring pumps from Luhn performance for a couple years. You can send your pump to them for the modifications.

http://www.luhnperformance.com/pontiac.html

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Old 04-09-2020, 11:56 AM
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Sweet ride Singleton! I had a red '66 hardtop before buying my '67.

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Old 04-09-2020, 12:30 PM
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"Cliff...I think I'll make a bracket thanks for the info. I was already leaning in that direction but wanted some advice"

Good plan. No issues welding to the pick-up tube, they are mild steel. The pumps are cast, and welding anything to them is hit and miss. It's a little embarrassing but about 20 years ago I failed to follow my own advice, cut a corner and welded a pick-up to a pump. It was a full-race application. After 4-5 years of service the engine was removed to "freshen" it up. The pick-up tube was laying in the bottom of the Morroso pan and luckily it didn't get sucked up into the spinning assembly. The weld did not fail. It just took a nice big chunk of the pump with it when it fell off. I went back to taking the extra time to make a bracket over to one of the pump cover bolts for them........

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Old 04-09-2020, 01:40 PM
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Cliff R....I'm actually quite shocked that a bracket isn't readily available. Some exist for other applications, but not for an older Pontiac 400. Surprising.

  #32  
Old 04-09-2020, 04:46 PM
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I think Steve asked about Hp/Tq delta testing between the 60 lb and the 80 lb spring.
May not be apples to apples but I have done lots of development testing on gear pumps for aviation turbine engines and have measured torque at various back pressures on our pumps which are integrated into fuel control units for the engine. Some years ago it was a GE38 engine that is being used on the new CH53 King Stallion 3 engine helicopter heavy lift. its a beast, anyway engine is rated at like 7500 shp and metered flow around 10 GPM ( we actually use PPH for fuel controls) up to about 950 psi discharge pressure.
So JetA and not oil and temperature will make a difference on load. We run from -40 up to about 250 F inlet. Cant remember the torque delta though.

Hint, we measured torque required in inch/lbs. not foot/lbs.

It was about 80 in/lbs, I would guess there is very little difference in load between the two spring pressures you are referencing..

Don't even get me started on the whole "hardend washer" thing to shim the spring up to increase pressure. You would be very surprised in the material we use to shim our springs, think beer cans. We actually shim the spring as a calibration for our high pressure relief settings.


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  #33  
Old 04-09-2020, 04:58 PM
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With all due respect to all.The engineers at PMD designed all the engines with a 80lb pump to use a larger gear on the dist and a smaller gear on the cam for a reason.In their tests they had to have gear or shaft failures with the stock size gears.To quote some people on this and other boars engineers do this for a reason. FWIW,Tom

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Old 04-09-2020, 05:08 PM
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One last idea I haven't seen mentioned yet is simply wrapping safety wire around the pickup tube, and tying it off tight to the body of the pump. In my old aircraft mechanic days, we used safety wire on everything. I saw the opportunity with the Pontiac oil pump pickup years ago, and have done it a few times since with no issues.

Wrap the wire tight around the outlet tube right next to where it presses into the pump body, pull it taught around the body of the pump a couple turns, and then twist the safety wire tight. Even though the wire may have a little 'give' over time, it won't give enough to allow the pickup to come out of the pump. Haven't seen this method fail yet, and requires minimal effort and zero cost for the piece of mind. Probably the simplest 'fix' I've seen too.

In lieu of welding or drilling/tapping/screw install, just another idea that has been successful for me.

Hope that helps.

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  #35  
Old 04-09-2020, 07:35 PM
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Seek data on HP loss with a Pontiac 80 lb pump vs a 60 lb pump, I suggest hard if not impossible to find. If you find documented information post it. I have a inquiry in to a oil pump engineer very familiar with Pontiac oil pumps, if I get a response I'll pass it on for interest.

In the meantime, for interest.... a Chevy big-block’s oil pump can draw well over 10 hp at 7,000 crankshaft rpm. Use a grade or so thicker in viscosity and that can go up another 5 hp. On the other hand, pay attention to the system’s efficiency and you can divert as much as 10 hp from what the oil pump absorbs and put that to good use at the rear wheels of your vehicle. That from a book.

Would one feel 10 hp in the seat of your pants on the street with your 7000 rpm Pontiac engine..

Side note, my talking points here within this thread were not to suggest the OP should use or require a 80 lb oil pump, period. For the most part it is just to elaborate that using one in some situations will not harm a Pontiac !
Nor is it a evil as some suggest

Onward thru the fog.................


.
.

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Last edited by Steve C.; 04-09-2020 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 04-09-2020, 07:37 PM
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You do realize you guys are all pretty cool right? This is a whole lota sexy talk I must tell you. Great reading.

I've decided I'm going to fabricate a bracket that attaches to the cover bolts and that wraps tightly around the tube. I can make it out of some faily thin sheet metal. I'm thinking at present that I'll Vise-grip my brace around the tube and spot weld it through a hole I'll have drilled in it. It'll be very similiar to the oil pump bracket offered by Jegs for other applications, though eliminating the bolt, in favor of a spot weld, to hold the bracket onto the tube. Then the tube will be prevented from not only slipping out, but changing it's adjustment from the bottom of the pan.

Whatcha guys think!?

  #37  
Old 04-10-2020, 06:18 AM
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You can't do a direct A to B comparison between a BBC oil pump and ours because the BBC pump has more teeth on its gears!

The BBC pump provides much smoother and consistent oil flow and smaller shock loads to the oil pump drive shaft and Cam and Dizzy gear for any level of oil pressure output as compared to the Pontiac pump.

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Old 04-10-2020, 09:42 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Information regarding the BBC oil pump was for interest, not intended to be a direct comparison.

Again, "We've never seen a noticeable performance loss from the added load," says Butler. "Racers will sometimes run a 60-psi pump to reduce parasitic drag and free up a few horsepower. While that's acceptable in a dedicated race engine that's frequently torn down, it's certainly not something we recommend for all engines."

So how much is that 'few', want to guess.


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 04-10-2020 at 09:54 AM.
  #39  
Old 04-10-2020, 10:44 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Maximum oil flow on a Pontiac stock-type 60- or 80-psi pump with a stock pickup screen is usually 12-13 gallons per minute (gpm).
Source: Jim Butler

Calculate HP to Drive Oil Pump

http://www.wallaceracing.com/oil-pump-hp-calc.php

Too simple ? Influenced by engine RPM, weight of oil, temperature, etc ? ?


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 04-10-2020 at 10:57 AM.
  #40  
Old 04-10-2020, 11:14 AM
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Region Warrior Region Warrior is offline
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OMG, just get a 60lb pump.
If machined and assembled right, shouldn't have any issues.
Never had a problem shifting from 5500-6500 rpm(depending on engines power range) since the 70's.

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