[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by bill ryder

Iris wheels. Someone was wondering...

Is the - between the PP what you were referring to John V.?

"Bill"!

Great looking car Bill
I like the Iris wheels vs. black wheels
Thanks for posting

Pontiac plant and Kansas plant used the "dash - " between upper and lower body colors (P-P) on the 65 cowl tags.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Jack P.

Here you go. This is a original 30,000 mile car. So the wheel color is on the build sheet but not the data tag.

05A build week may have been the "beginning of the end" for the wheel color codes on the 65 Fremont cowl tags.

60sstuff mentioned in post #1 that it stopped sometime late in the 65 production year.
Maybe your example will help determine a cut-off point.
Thanks for sharing those pics with us

Aluminum Front Drums ! ! !
goodness gracious

[John V.]

Originally Posted by John V.

It is possible that my KC/Balt decode is wrong for Code 484 as the Spare Tire Cover. I am confident that 481 is the Deluxe Wheel Covers and 482 is the Custom Wheel Covers. Only other codes I have seen on the KC and Balt records for Box 48 is 484 and 485. I find it just a little odd that I have found 484 and 485 commonly which I deduced as the Spare Tire Cover alone and the Deluxe Wheel Covers with Spare Tire Cover combination respectively. But odd that I don't think I've ever seen 486 which I would have interpreted as the Custom Wheel Covers with Spare Tire Cover combination. I did have pretty solid documentation on a build that had the Deluxe Wheel Covers with Spare Tire Cover combination for the code 485. But I assumed Chevy used the same additive coding that PMD was using to deduce the Code 484 was the Spare Tire Cover alone. Made logical sense to me but the lack of any 486 coded KC/Balt docs leaves open that I have misinterpreted Code 484 and would perhaps remove the exception for the S1A build I listed above.

Meant to update this. When I dug deep thru my records, I did come across a doc with the Code 486.

So I'll stand by my original interpretation that Code 484 on a '64 KC/Balt doc should mean Spare Tire Cover alone with neither the Deluxe Wheel Covers or the Custom Wheel Covers having been optioned.

[G.T.O.boy]

It is included in the Sunfire thread, mine has a tagged radiator that is a 2"x17.5" 3 core radiator, but it could have been swapped out at some point, as this car was raced heavily

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

This is another side-track on my Option #461 #464 /465 question.
2 Baltimore Cars
That John V. nailed using his prior research.
I was just trying to discern if they referred to a wheelcover or not - initially.

461 - Tinted Glass - Windshield Only (Pontiac Sales Code 532)
462 - Tinted Glass - All Windows (Pontiac Sales Code 531)
464 - Inside Tilting Day/Night Non-Glare Mirror (Pontiac Sales Code 442)
465 - Tinted Windshield & Inside Tilt Mirror
466 - Tinted Glass - All Windows & Inside Tilt Mirror

I would hate to try to decipher a PHS for a 64 Baltimore Car
It would be a real mess of a car on the breakdown
We need to find John V's old research article and make it a Sticky Thread up top.

On this first one
64 GTO Convertible - Gulfstream Aqua
3x2 / 4spd / 3.55 (F) / 4 Core Radiator (58)
Dec 11, 1963

I have the PHS , Customer Invoice , Cowl Tag
& a Fisher Body Mini-Sheet

The invoice shows it was equipped with the Day/Nite Mirror and Tinted Windshield.
Just like John deciphered.
But no option codes listed to match up with PHS - and they would have been wrong anyway (Baltimore PHS Codes) - which would have woken me up faster.

Mini-Sheet also backs up John's work
Its a rarity to have a customer invoice or window sticker on most cars, so the mini-sheet does help to an extent to cross-check a Baltimore/KC car.
And the Baltimore cowl tag doesn't list out any Fisher Codes to help with anything.

Group 1
W - Tinted Windshield (bingo)
O - Mirror Group (bingo)

Group 2
L - Manual Trans (check)
G - Console (check)
P - Back Up Lamps (check)

Group 3
blank

Group 4
blank

Group 5
N - GTO (check)

Great work John, it must have taken a lot of Balti/KC window stickers and other scarce data to convert all those wacky Balti/KC codes into Regular Sales Codes

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

[Side Track ]
And this is the other Baltimore Car with Option #461 #464 / 465
These aren't rare options or anything of course - its just what got me going in this direction.

64 GTO Hdtp - Saddle Bronze
4bbl / 4spd / 3.23 (K) / 3 Core Radiator (57) ??
Jan 23, 1964

Only have PHS and Fisher Mini-Sheet for this one.
I could really make a mess out of this one trying to breakdown the PHS

But the Mini-Sheet does show it was Tinted Windshield 1W (532) , whereas the PHS doesn't reflect 532.

This one didn't get the Mirror Group Package to reflect anything about the Interior Day/Nite Mirror - but think we can trust John's assessment from previous example.

1W - Tinted Windshield (bingo)

2L - Manual Trans
2P - Back Up Lamps

3K - Dome Reading/Courtesy Lamps

5N - GTO
5W - Front Seatbelts

Posting these examples in case the docs help John in any form with data mining.

[MikeNoun]

1964 Pontiac Color And Trim Chart showing the wheel colors for the Tempest/LeMans.

Mike

[MikeNoun]

1964 wheel colors for two-tone paint schemes.

[thepontiacman]

Here's pics of a spare off a 64 tempest wagon. Code near valve stem is A. Wheel color is a bluish/teal. Looked same or similar to the body color.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

1964 Pontiac Color And Trim Chart showing the wheel colors for the Tempest/LeMans.

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

1964 wheel colors for two-tone paint schemes.

Thanks Mike
Do you have the same data for 1965 that you could share , too ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by thepontiacman

Here's pics of a spare off a 64 tempest wagon. Code near valve stem is A. Wheel color is a bluish/teal. Looked same or similar to the body color.

That would be the Gulfstream Aqua color.
All the 14x6 plain steel wheels in 64 65 66 were stamped A .
So its an original
I don't know if the "A" stamp continued past 66 ... might have

[thepontiacman]

The 67 LeMans black steel wheels that I have are stamped A3.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[60sstuff]

Thank You Mr. Mike Noun.

This thread was getting a little chaotic.

You certainly cleared up things with those “two” charts.

Chris.

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

All the 14x6 plain steel wheels in 64 65 66 were stamped A .

Not so sure about that ^^^^ , as all 5 of my 14x6 steel wheels on my ‘65 do Not have an “A” stamp.

Below photos show what is stamped on my car in signature.

CT

[bill ryder]

Chris, I agree on the 6 or 9 for 65, whichever....

"Bill"!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

Not so sure about that ^^^^ , as all 5 of my 14x6 steel wheels on my ‘65 do Not have an “A” stamp.

Sorry about that.
I shouldn't have made that post.

Can only recall seeing A , 6A , 3A
seemed like there was always an A somewhere.
But have to admit it was a very light observation back then, nobody cared about plain steel wheels anyway and couldn't sell them for enough worth finding a good box to ship them.

But they've gained a LOT more popularity in the past 10-15 years.

sorry about the mis-information
and thanks for the correction.

[MikeNoun]

I don't have the same chart for 1965's, but I have the 1965 paint codes and paint formulas (body, interior, wheels, etc).

[John V.]

Mike, very cool to see. Where did PMD publish those charts?

But we still have some '64 exceptions to consider.

1. FFA, 11/26 Pontiac Plant GTO Post Coupe. No Wheel Covers, Red Line Tires. Code E Wheel Color expected, Code A Wheel Color installed instead.

2. SSA, 11/21 Fremont Plant GTO Hardtop. No Wheel Covers, Red Line Tires. Code Y Wheel Color expected, Code A Wheel Color installed instead.

3. Q1A, 12/10 Balt Plant GTO Convertible. No Wheel Covers, Red Line Tires. Code U Wheel Color expected, Code A Wheel Color installed instead.

4. S1A, 12/9 Balt Plant GTO Convertible. No Wheel Covers, Whitewall Tires. Code Y Wheel Color expected, Code A Wheel Color installed instead.

The above are early builds. But lest we think PMD was not mounting any 7.50x14 tires on non-Black Wheels early in production for whatever reason, such as a belief that GTO production would be too low to justify the use of the non-Black Color Wheels, consider the following build:

5. QQU, 11/14 Pontiac Plant GTO Hardtop. No Wheel Covers, Whitewall Tires. Earlier than any of the above 4, with the expected Code U Gulfstream Aqua Wheels and 7.50x14 Whitewalls mounted.

The next examples got the expected Wheel Color but the Wheel Color Code does not conform with the Charts posted by Mike Noun. So far, whenever the Pontiac Plant installed non-Black Wheels, it appears they used the "correct" letter Codes defined in the Charts. But the satellite Plants seemed to use the "correct" code at times, other times, the Wheel Color Code used the Paint code for that color instead.

6. SSS, 1/24 Balt Plant GTO Hardtop. No Wheel Covers, Whitewall Tires. Code Y expected for Saddle Wheel Color, Code S coded instead. Example of a different Wheel Color Code being used at Balt in lieu of the PMD published code for Saddle Color Wheels.

7. QQQ, 7/16 Balt Plant Lemans. No Wheel Covers, Whitewall Tires. Code U expected for Gulfstream Aqua Wheel Color, Code Q coded instead. Example of a different Wheel Color Code being used at Balt in lieu of the PMD published code for Gulfstream Aqua Color Wheels.

And I'll throw the next two on this list because they are examples of Fremont builds with the "correct" code used for Saddle Wheel Color and Singapore Gold Wheel Color respectively.

8. S7Y, 2/13 Fremont Plant Lemans Convertible. No Wheel Covers, 7.00x14 Whitewall Tires. "Correct" Code Y used for Saddle Wheels.

9. RRT, 5/14 Fremont Plant GTO Hardtop. No Wheel Covers, Whitewall Tires. "Correct" Code T used for Singapore Gold Wheels.

This last example I reported earlier in the thread as being a PPQ code from Fremont. After taking another look at the PHS document, I have revised the code to PPU, the Code U being "correct" according to the Chart.

10. PPU, 3/13 Fremont Plant GTO Hardtop. No Wheel Covers, Red Line Tires. "Correct" Code U used for Gulfstream Aqua Wheels.


So for now, it looks like there are many early year builds that we would have expected a Color Wheel but got Black Wheels instead. And at least at the Pontiac Plant, there is at least one early GTO example that did get Gulfstream Aqua Wheels as expected.

It also looks like the Balt Plant used Code S for Saddle Wheels and Code Q for Gulfstream Aqua Wheels instead of the PMD "correct" codes of Code Y and Code U.

Balt and KC were Chevy controlled rather than BOP controlled which may explain the coding difference. However, the only example I could find from KC was a 3/27 FFE GTO Hardtop, "correct" Code E used to identify the Yorktown Blue Wheel Color.

Lots of combinations and Codes not seen yet from each of the Plants. The Charts tell us what we SHOULD expect. But with the exceptions already noted, still plenty of research needed before drawing definitive conclusions, especially when hoping to explain exceptions.

It would be such a boon to those of us that love to uncover this sort of detail if the PHS records were open for research. Instead of a handful of PHS records to review, there could be tens of thousands. Wishful thinking I guess.

[MikeNoun]

John V., this was from an original foldout chart from the 1964 dealer sales album dated Nov 1st, 1963. There are two charts, both large format, and the printing is very small. They show a matrix of all available color/trim combinations. One chart covers the Tempest/LeMans/Catalina, the other Star Chief/Bonneville/Grand Prix. These are quite large, but the photos I took were not clear, so I transcribed the wheel codes section of the Tempest/LeMans/Catalina chart over to a spreadsheet. I found these in the Pontiac-Oakland Museum. Attached is a small pic of one of the charts to show how detailed and comprehensive they are.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Attached is a small pic of one of the charts to show how detailed and comprehensive they are.

Wow , very comprehensive coverage.

the "Red Lines Matter" would have been a cool new factoid for the history books,
but maybe it won't really work out overall.

The exceptions are probably/mostly customer spec situations.

I'm thinking a default to black "A" wheel due to on-hand shortage may not have shown up on the paperwork
- especially on the trim tag stamping.
Since the trim tag was stamped and installed before the build ever got wheels underneath it.