[gtoric]

Does anyone out there in forum land have evidence, photographic or otherwise, to prove that some late year Pontiacs were delivered with Goodyear Polyglas RWL tires?

[gtoric]

Does anyone out there in forum land have evidence, photographic or otherwise, to prove that some late year Pontiacs were delivered with Goodyear Polyglas RWL tires?

[taximan]

No evidence exists that any 69's were delivered with white letters. Only red line and white line.

[Red69Goat]

Found this window sticker for sale on ebay a while back. Could be a reproduction. I have a lot of 69 documentation and have yet to see any real evidence supporting white letter tires on 69's.

[Jack Peters]

Other car makers had them cause I had one. Looked at mag articles I have and don't see anything but bw or ww.

[Red69Goat]

I guess my point in showing this window sticker is asking the question is this legit or not? I'm still not convinced that RWL tires were offered in 1969. VIN # 242679R209398 seems awful high for an Arlington plant car. I have an Arlington plant 69 with 242379R155*** with a build date of 3D (4th week of march). I also know from research that there were exactly 164,325 cars(Chevy full size,Pontiac full size, and Pontiac a-body) built in 1969 at the Arlington Texas plant. Could it be that this window sticker was fabricated?

[Red69Goat]

To further clarify, I'm refering to the "G70X14 WL (white letter?) Fiberglass tires TPL $43.18" on the 69 window sticker.

[Jack Peters]

Red69Goat,

Could be. Weren't white letter tires usually wer refered to on sticker as RWL? Raised White Letter. Also note that the code is TPL. Usually this is all numbers and/or number/letter combination.

I'm not familiar with pre '71 window stickers. My'71 has 2 codes. One in front of the description and one in front of the price. An example is
M22 4 speed close ratio transmission 35G 237.60
What year did they start with both codes?

Just relooked through a bunch of old ('69) mags with Pontiacs. The only one is the '69 TA with the TP engine articles with rwl tires. No Judges, GTO's, GP's or FB's.

[Held for Ransom]

Jack, on my '70 Judges' window sticker the tires are listed as "...14 WHITE LTR FIBERGLASS TPL" (edge is ripped off) and was a 30.54 extra.

[taximan]

Raised wl tires were available in 1970, but not 1969 or prior.

[ramair2]

YES I DO have proof...my 1969 RA IV Espresso 4spd Judge came with goodyear polyglas tires..it explicitely says so on my body broadcast sheet i found above the gas tank...found it during past yr during the the frame off resto..

RA2

PS HOWEVER I do NOT think this means ALL 69 Judges came with Goodyears...bet it was a supply issue and probably one that varied by plant/region, time of year, dumb luck etc...

[ramair2]

PS my judge is a late 69 build (june) if that helps at all..

[BUQUICK]

RamAir2,
So are you saying you have proof of raised white letters? Does the body broadcast sheet you found in your car say specifically raised white letters? If so can you scan it and post a photo since this is the first time someone has said they have proof of the RWL as an available option for '69. The '69 Judges I've seen in road tests and vintage ads, etc, all had Goodyear Polyglas tires, but always just blackwalls.

P.S. If I had been alive in 1969 and bought a '69 GTO my 1st choice would have been an Expresso Brown Judge. I wished my '69 was Expresso Brown with a Gold interior! I would love to see a picture of your car.

Thanks,

[68alpinebluegto]

I would be willing to bet that there were some 69 late year cars with Good Year RWL tires. I know that some 70 model cars had Firestone Wide ovals and some had Good Year's but what determined which car had which? Supply? Assembly plant?

[gtoric]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red69Goat:
I guess my point in showing this window sticker is asking the question is this legit or not? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMO, the window sticker image that you have posted is a reproduction. Not only that, this repro has the 1969 car information printed on a 1968 form. I say this because the '69 form was revised on 8/68 to move the "Federal Excise Tax" line from below the "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price," and placed a new block of type in the blank area to the right of that line. I also believe that this is a fabricated form because: 1) legitimate forms have the form number and rev date just below the L.H. bottom border and PRINTED IN U.S.A. appears below the R.H. bottom border; 2) copies of legit stickers usually pick up at least some ghost image of the back-side printing of the form; 3) this is usually the biggest giveaway, all original window stickers I've ever examined from this time period feature zone/dealer code number and order info in either the upper or lower margins.

Also, whenever you are examining an "original" window sticker in person, the paper should look and feel 30-40 years old. Remember, the instructions for removal on the back of the original sticker read, "Remove by soaking with warm water. Avoid instruments which could scratch glass." Most stickers that actually came off the car's glass, and were soaked with water, were slightly damaged by this soaking. However, not all surviving orignial window stickers came off the car windows, as I believe that the dealer also received a copy for their records.

BTTT: I've never seen proof of a 1969 Pontiac having been delivered with RWL tires. But...the '69 Firebird was built well into the 1970 model year. It is conceivable that Firebirds built after September, 1969 may have had RWL tires installed. I just don't know if very late-built '69 GTOs might also have had these new style tires installed. One last item, the 1969 A-body assembly manual does not list the raised white letter tire in its chart. The last revision on that page was 6/10/69. Still, is it possible that a few GTOs were built with RWL tires very late in production (July/August)?

[Jack Peters]

RAMAIR2,

I sold Goodyear tires in '68-'70. RWL came out in late '68 on '69 model year cars. We received RWL in early '69 at our store. Polyglas tires were available in white wall, red wall or raised white letters. Don't recall any Pontiacs with RWL in the '69 year run until they wore them out and we put new ones on.

In late'68 the fiberglas belted tires as oem on some cars and in '69 were oem on all cars. Ford and Chrysler had them as rwl but for some reason GM didn't. At least I don't recall them being oem as rwl onGM. They were great as they resisted puncturing much more than non belted tires. We had a lot of gravel roads and streets and did much less tire repairs after the belted tires came out. Radials were a joke back then until about '73 or so.

I think someone needs to come up with documentation from PHS or original build sheet.

[Red69Goat]

Kind of figured the window sticker might be bogus. It was just the sticker for sale with no car to go along with it. Just wanted to see what you all thought.

[Red69Goat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ramair2:
YES I DO have proof...my 1969 RA IV Espresso 4spd Judge came with goodyear polyglas tires..it explicitely says so on my body broadcast sheet i found above the gas tank...found it during past yr during the the frame off resto..

RA2

PS HOWEVER I do NOT think this means ALL 69 Judges came with Goodyears...bet it was a supply issue and probably one that varied by plant/region, time of year, dumb luck etc... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does the car's build sheet specify raised white letter Polyglas? As Jack pointed out the Polyglas were available (and still are reproduced) in red line and thin white wall.

[RAIVJUDGE]

Having owned a few 69 Judges and currently owning a 70 Judge. I can say with almost absolute certainty that in 69 GTO's and Judges would only have white lines, red lines or black walls. UPC code for red lines is PY7 and PX8 for white lines. I had one 69 Judge that came with white lines and on the PHS it referred to them as WL which mean white line not white letter. As for 70 my Judge is documented with it's original window sticker ( no PHS repop) and buildsheet lists option PK5 G70x14 white ltr fiberglass TPL 30.54. I believe without the Judge option the cost for white letters was 51.61. I have yet to see a 69 with documented proof of white letters and there are no UPC or option codes for them in the sales albums or assembly manuals.

[gtoric]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagjr:
I would be willing to bet that there were some 69 late year cars with Good Year RWL tires. I know that some 70 model cars had Firestone Wide ovals and some had Good Year's but what determined which car had which? Supply? Assembly plant? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The '69 Assembly Manual specs only Goodyear as a supplier for the standard G70 x 14 blackwall tire for The Judge in that year.