[azmusclecar]

I have a 3 speed Saginaw in my Tempest. Original equipment.

I found a 4 speed Saginaw that came out of a Vega.

I have a classic Hurst Competition shifter AND bracket that came off a
4 speed Saginaw from the 60's.

The mounting bracket will NOT bolt up to the 4 Speed tailhousing

The mounting bracket WILL bolt to the 3 speed tailhousing.

Does anyone know if I can take the tailhousing from the 3 speed and place it on the 4 speed?

I know it's a long shot but before I go trying to find parts to fit I always like to know if a swap can work.

The reason I chose the Vega tranny was for the 3.50 first gear in the four speed to help get the Tempest rolling and still keep it's 3.08 rear gear ratio.

Thanks to anyone that can help.
AZ

If you look up Saginaws you will see they make a model 456 and 441 and you can see the different tailhousings and how the shifter bolted to it. I am trying to use the old school Hurst Competition Shifter bracket.

[Jeff Hamlin]

It's my understanding that the inner assembly of the 3-spd differs vastly from the 4-spd and would require an almost complete tear-down just to remove it.
And then I'm still not sure it can be used. Your best bet IMO would be to get a HURST Universal shifter mount.
IIRC these will bolt to the main case thus allowing you to use your shifter.

I would find a local old school trans shop and get their input.

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

It's my understanding that the inner assembly of the 3-spd differs vastly from the 4-spd and would require an almost complete tear-down just to remove it.
And then I'm still not sure it can be used. Your best bet IMO would be to get a HURST Universal shifter mount.
IIRC these will bolt to the main case thus allowing you to use your shifter.

I would find a local old school trans shop and get their input.

Thanks for the input Jeff. I'll look in to the Hurst Universal Mount as well....

It seems just from my limited knowledge the length of the unit didn't change much. I figured (which usually is not a good thing) if the gear case is the same from the 3 to 4 speed that the 4 speed just has another gear packed in the case and the tailhousing is pretty much the same for both.

I always try to find the easy fix, and swapping tailhousings looked to be the easiest. I didn't want to pull the 3 speed out and insert the 4 speeds in to the gear case. Just the tailhousing swap.

I have the 4 speed on the bench just looking at how it works. Very interesting as you can watch the mechanisms engage and disengage.

Thanks again........

[george kujanski]

Back in the day, I was tired of the 3 speed in my lemans Sprint with 3.90 axle because of the buzz at speed and pinging from a stop using 93 octane when it used to require 100 octane.

I found a Borg-warner 5 speed T-50 with overdrive and bolted it up. It was used in GM cars in the mid to late 70's behind 4, 6's and the Olds 265 V8. It has an integral shifter which would fix your shifter problems and a low first gear to get you going.

Really enjoyed driving that car.

If you can find one, they are now fairly rare. I had to modify the crossmember and shorten the driveshaft, but otherwise bolted right up.

George

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Back in the day, I was tired of the 3 speed in my lemans Sprint with 3.90 axle because of the buzz at speed and pinging from a stop using 93 octane when it used to require 100 octane.

I found a Borg-warner 5 speed T-50 with overdrive and bolted it up. It was used in GM cars in the mid to late 70's behind 4, 6's and the Olds 265 V8. It has an integral shifter which would fix your shifter problems and a low first gear to get you going.

Really enjoyed driving that car.

If you can find one, they are now fairly rare. I had to modify the crossmember and shorten the driveshaft, but otherwise bolted right up.

George

Thanks for the info George........I would LOVE to have a 5 speed in my Tempest.
However I ended up with this Sagianw 4 speed at like dirt cheap and trying to maximize the budget, I will see if I can work out this issue and see what happens.

Those 5 speeds are getting hard to find and when you do, the price keeps going higher. Yessiree I would love to have a 5 speed in the Tempest.

[camerjeff]

Those BW T-50's are notoriously weak trans, also I never cared for the shift pattern on them, with reverse left and back, and 1st gear left and forward. Road racers like that pattern as they seldom use 1st gear after the initial start, that way the 2nd to 3rd shift is forward and back.
I broke several of the BW T-50's in the Astre I had with a Iron Duke for an engine, and a car that was at least 1200lbs lighter than any cammer. I would recommend a T-5 as they are much stronger and have a conventional shift pattern. They also have the intregal shifter.

But back to your original question I think Jeff is correct I do not think the tail housing is a direct swap between Saginaw 3 and 4 speeds. I only have two 3-speeds out in the shop and don't have a 4-speed to compare it to. Maybe if you post pictures of your transmissions it would help.

[azmusclecar]

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see the lower three holes that were used to attach a torque tube or torque brace to either I believe Camaros...........

They are the problem with the tailshaft AND attaching the Hurst Shifter Bracket

[azmusclecar]

Overall pic of the 4 speed tranny

[IMG][/IMG]

[george kujanski]

Sure cammerJeff, but AZ may be using his car for normal driving. I had it behind my Sprint and just had fun with it in normal driving, no probs But i only had one

here's what i found out: When i bought mine from a bone yard, I dissassembled it and found broken teeth. There was also a plate gear, spring loaded to the front gear of the cluster gear that was damaged.

I talked to a B-W engineer who said it was to remove backlash and quiet the noise when unloaded, but would also fail. He said to remove it. Anyway, short story, I bought it cheap and replaced the necessary parts and it was fine for my driving.

Finding gears and parts nowadays may be difficult, hence I would only buy one if I got it real cheap and take a chance. i've seen ads for $1K, 5K, etc. I wouldn't spend more than $100 today, it's risky.

George

[azmusclecar]

You can tell the gear ratios in the gear box by the number of rings or grooves on the input shaft. This tranny has 3 which makes it the 3.50 first gear one.

[IMG][/IMG]

[azmusclecar]

I was hoping to find a Hurst Shifter to bolt right to those three bolts in a triangulated figure to solve the problem if the tailhousing swap won't work.

[IMG][/IMG]

[azmusclecar]

I hope the pics help show what I am dealing with. Sorry for being lazy, should have posted them on the first thread............

[azmusclecar]

To add some more confusion.............just kidding, here is a link to the three and four speeds so you have an idea of what all is out there to make this confusing.



http://www.teufert.net/trans/trannyid.pdf

[Jeff Hamlin]

Here is something similar to the mount I was thinking of;
http://www.jegs.com/i/Hurst/530/3667...yABEgJrCPD_BwE

[RAIV55]

Why not make the mounting plate you need?

[george kujanski]

^^^What I was thinking if i had to do it.

George

[azmusclecar]

Well, as they say, why reinvent the wheel...........and my bracket making skills are on par with my needlepoint skills..............

I was going to retrofit the current bracket to work on the Saginaw 456 but I would end up destroying the integrity of the bracket itself. Too many cuts and drilling other holes will just weaken the bracket.

So let's see how this plays out.........

I just got the tailhousing removed from the Saginaw 456 today. That was fun...
I figured it unbolted. Wrong..........C clip hidden inside the gearcase and you could only access it with the tailhousing pointed a certain way and then you needed DUCKBILL pliars to spread the C clip to release the tailhousing from the gear case.

Never even heard of DUCKBILL pliars....................until today.

[azmusclecar]

[IMG][/IMG]

And now we all know what duckbill pliars are............

kind of "quacks" you up huh? Sorry it needed to be said,
you were thinking it anyway...........I had the courage to say it.

[azmusclecar]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

Here is something similar to the mount I was thinking of;
http://www.jegs.com/i/Hurst/530/3667...yABEgJrCPD_BwE

Jeff I have Hurst checking to see if they have just the bracket..........and can sell separate.

Thanks for taking the time to find that and supply the link.
AZ

[RAIV55]

Originally Posted by azmusclecar

Jeff I have Hurst checking to see if they have just the bracket..........and can sell separate.

Thanks for taking the time to find that and supply the link.
AZ

A while back checked with Hurst for a mounting plate for a Top Loader in a Mustang. It comes in a kit which has rods, arms and small parts like clips and bushings for about $150.