Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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  #21  
Old 10-16-2018, 06:49 PM
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Yeah, I bought the 4.00" Scat from Frank/Bob after I read the test results you posted. Well, Plan B is to buy the Ohio 3.75" forging, smooth it off and get it cryo'd.

  #22  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:02 PM
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I have a street car w/ a 4.25 stroke. Wish I build a smaller stroke motor. The torque it makes on boost on the street is hard to control. Off boost it does move my tug boat nicely.

  #23  
Old 01-09-2020, 11:56 AM
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Probably time to give some updates on my progress. for this thread. I have been busy working on the main girdle system for this project the last several weeks. I made some parts earlier this year in the shop, now I am reverse engineering and computer modeling. I am working on 3 different girdle designs. They have different levels of mods, from economical with no block or pan mods to extensive mods. Two systems fit in the OEM Pontiac oil pan, the third I am working on uses Mopar B/RB rear sump oil pan. The Mopar pan is a tight fit, if you know of a similar design that is and inch wider I would appreciate the tip. One system bolts to the pan rails, basically is a expandable halo system in a stock pan , the second does not use halo’s, just cross bars or bridges between the pan supports in a stock pan, the third is a main frame bolted to the pan rails and is very similar to girdles used in BB mopars, 1 piece girdle bolted to the pan rail support and the mains. I am mainly designing these for 2 bolt main engines. The engines that are drilled for 4 bolt mains like the 455 I have, I am using the outer main cap bolts to tie into the pan rail supports. I have main caps modeled to do billet steel two bolt main caps for higher hp stuff down the road. We have been fitting this in between other engineering projects, but I am making progress. Maybe not fast enough, but if this were easy it would have been done already.

The engine projects I for these right now, 1 is going in my 77 T/A, 500557 block, over 500 hp. The second is going in a 455 nitros engine about 800+ hp, I am going either going to run it in the GTO while I work on the boost system, or pull the 455 Olds out of my Chevelle and run the Pontiac in it. It is mostly together, I will have it done before the 389. The 389 turbo engine is still the main engine I plan to use for the car for this thread. A lot going on this year, so it may not be this year, still my goal though.

About this build. I know I will have very little if any time to go to the track much this next year, so I am trying to do all this so I can drive it on the street. On the GTO tribute we have the body sitting on the new chassis. New to it anyway, we are using a modified FMCo P71 police chassis. I have the pistons for the 389, forged 4.125 bore for stock length rods and 3.75 stroke. The heads are done. The 290/290 roller cam I was hoping to use has a ramp that it appears it had a lifter issue. I some how missed that, so I had to punt on that cam. My TA engine is using a Bullet/UD hyd roller profile with Crower Solid rollers and edm oiling, the 455 has a comp flat tappet solid with edm oiling. The Bullet cam is a street oriented cam and has a decent tuning window for lash. Tim at bullet helped me with it. I am thinking about doing something similar in the boost engine.

I hope to build an all out Pontiac engine with one of the girdle systems to sacrifice in our Pulling tractor to see were it comes apart.

“If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn’t be called research”


Last edited by Jay S; 01-09-2020 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Edit
  #24  
Old 01-10-2020, 09:05 AM
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Got any pics of the girdle designs?

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Old 01-10-2020, 12:53 PM
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Taff2, sorry I am not planning on posting pictures of the girdle systems on the forum til I get to the finalized designs. It is not worth showing what I made in the shop since it is really not what is being built anyway. I know you and several others have done a girdle system. It sounds like LPI even has one done using the same software I am using. Some of my ideas are new, some are not. If there is something specific you want to see pm me here or email me (jaystukenholtz@hotmail.com). I busy reverse engineering parts and doing mods on the models.. Lol, sounds easier than it is. What I have today will look different than a week from today. I should have pretty good models to look at for each system by the end of next week if I do not get distracted. I can do 1 of something or 10,000 of something though if you have a girdle component that you need made. This is our job shop: https://www.tmcoinc.com/


Last edited by Jay S; 01-10-2020 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Edit
  #26  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:52 AM
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Nice set up Jay, looks like you could turn out block girdles no problem. There isn't a problem making a strong girdle IMO, the hard part is making one that doesn't need a ton of expensive machine work to align it, or custom fab to integrate with the timing cover/oil pan.
A cast/billet clamshell type like found on the new Thor 4 pot engine, or maybe a budget type similar to the main caps arrangement on the Mitsubishi Evo engines might work. The other problem is cost effectiveness, the fully fitted girdle assembly has to cost less than a quarter of what a new aftermarket block costs, or it doesn't make economic sense. Again, just JMO.

  #27  
Old 01-11-2020, 11:49 AM
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As usual your opinions I think are spot on. Creating a cost effective girdle is a big issue.

I run Mopars and Oldsmobiles in addition to Pontiacs. I have a 440 here getting assembled with a Hughes engines girdle. It is pretty slick with no machining. So I am taking different design aspects from those Olds and Mopar systems. Our pulling tractor is a dry sump girdle combo.

TMCO has their own Engineering department, this all will go through their engineering after my efforts. The basic girdle system is mostly designed for semi deep skirting 500557s blocks. I am hoping to hold to a $400-500 retail range. The full skirted set up with the off road mopar pan I am sure will be more. But it is stronger. I am trying too unitizing the pan supports, to make it more affordable. One of the halo/cage systems is a two tier halo, it is probably the most unusual and unique mod. The front 4 mains use one girdle and the back 4 a different girdle then they overlap creating a big truss. It is what I built in the shop. I wouldn’t do all this if I was’t having fun...

I looked at the EVO girdle set up, it has some similarities. I was not familiar with the Thor four pot. That is wicked.


Last edited by Jay S; 01-11-2020 at 11:51 AM. Reason: Edit
  #28  
Old 01-11-2020, 03:32 PM
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Have you seen Steve Barcak's version he used on his blower engine?



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  #29  
Old 01-11-2020, 05:10 PM
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http://www.pontiacheaven.org/race_cars.html

He did a nice job on that. I think Pontiac engineers did something similar on some SD engines but used cast iron. Mondello did a billet Aluminum piece with the caps part of the girdle. $$$$

  #30  
Old 01-11-2020, 09:36 PM
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I have built several Chrysler 4.7L engines over the years and really wish there was a bedplate made for the Pontiac that was similar. The crank literally has 28 bolts holding the main bedplate in place. Once thats bolted down, that crank does not move! If you have not looked at that set up yet, you may want to... the Chrysler 4.7L can be found in every dodge Ram, Dakota, Durango and Jeep GC from 1999-2014. Its cast iron and weighs as such however its worth the weight penalty considering the reliability they offer.

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  #31  
Old 01-12-2020, 06:49 PM
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Thanks, I am not familiar with the 4.7. We jumped past that era of Chrysler stuff that I have worked with, went from the LA sbm to the gen3 Hemi’s. I had to look the 4.7 stuff up. Probably the most interesting thing to me was not the bed plate and the way it is fastened to the block. It is the iron they used to make the bed plate. A modified CGI material design special for the bed plate. I have looked into making some components from ductile iron, which is stronger than cgi. The modified cgi Chrysler used appears was something different than a normal cgi, pretty comparable strength wise to to some ductile irons.

https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../1999-01-0325/


Last edited by Jay S; 01-12-2020 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Edit
  #32  
Old 02-18-2020, 01:54 AM
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This one of the main supports I have been working on. It was designed for 4 bolt and splayed setups. But like shown it works on 2 bolts caps too. It uses shims and longer main studs. Picture shown is .5”. For more strength there are reinforcing plates that are wedged between the girdle and machined main caps. It then has about a 1.25” thick support above the mains. I was going to use a mopar rear sump pan, but decided to make a pan for it. This one will probably be make out if t6 aluminum with an aluminum fabricate pan. It uses the stock front cover. Most expensive of what I have designed.
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Last edited by Jay S; 02-18-2020 at 02:31 AM. Reason: Edit
  #33  
Old 02-18-2020, 02:02 AM
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Here is the support I have done for using the stock Pontiac oil pan. I am doing this system first. It is going in my trans am. It has a shim for the front cover and on the rear main surface too shim the pan down 1/4”. This is lighter duty, but also requires no machine work. The supports on top of the mains are shimmed to height and the pan rail supports lock them to the block. Overall this is my favorite one that I have done. I should have prices for this in a couple months.
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Last edited by Jay S; 02-18-2020 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Edit
  #34  
Old 02-18-2020, 02:11 AM
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Here is a halo system for a Pontiac. I made some supports to tie into the unused bolt holes on a 4 bolt block with 2 bolt caps. But that is optional. It fits in a stock oil. This photo was for 3.75” and 4” cranks. For bigger cranks a oil pan like a newer Milidon 7 qt would be a better choice for more room on the front cylinders. This one won’t clear the rod bolts as shown on a crank bigger than 4”..
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Last edited by Jay S; 02-18-2020 at 02:33 AM. Reason: Edit
  #35  
Old 02-18-2020, 02:29 AM
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This is what the halo looks like with all the trimmings. I don’t really have plans to do this one anymore. This worked best with a 3.75” and 4” crank with a stock oil pan. Bigger cranks would fit with a little more work I just did not get back to it. It has thicker rail supports and is for machined caps. I though it looks kind of cool in full trim, but it does not support the front main much.
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Last edited by Jay S; 02-18-2020 at 02:43 AM. Reason: Edit
  #36  
Old 02-18-2020, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
Here is the support I have done for using the stock Pontiac oil pan. I am doing this system first. It is going in my trans am. It has a shim for the front cover and on the rear main surface too shim the pan down 1/4”. This is lighter duty, but also requires no machine work. The supports on top of the mains are shimmed to height and the pan rail supports lock them to the block. Overall this is my favorite one that I have done. I should have prices for this in a couple months.
Just to add. I do not have the weldments shown in the picture. There is some minor welding I designed into it to cheapen this one up.

Also you can’t see it, but the caps are torqued just like a stock engine without the supports on. Then the support fits on top. That is were the shims go. Once shimmed the nuts that lock the support down are torqued. The supports are machined to fit over the factory caps and the arp nuts, then the main stud is just long enough to thread the nut on to lock it down.

I am about a washer thickness from being able to use stock length arp main studs. I haven’t decided if I can thread the stock arp studs up slightly and just use the stock length ARP main studs or if I have to use longer studs? This will be a mid-grade steel alloy.

I have another design project I have to get working on, not remotely related to any of this. I have to take a break for awhile on this project. Maybe by that time there will be some suggestions for future mods. This support goes to the shop first. Thanks for looking..
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Last edited by Jay S; 02-18-2020 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Edit
  #37  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:17 AM
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Econo version for center 3 mains to pan rail
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  #38  
Old 02-18-2020, 10:41 AM
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What support does the halo provide if it is not anchored the pan rail?

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Old 02-18-2020, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponjohn View Post
What support does the halo provide if it is not anchored the pan rail?
Someone else might have a different opinion. IMHO, You are correct the halo is limited in what it will support. It is more for cap walk than anything.

Really the only thing it does is tie all the tops of the caps together then instead of putting cyclic directional forces on the block it should make the forces more straight down on the cap surface.

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Old 02-18-2020, 11:35 AM
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Here is a view of the halo with the rail supports. The large disks on the crank are the stock OEM oil pan location. You can see it is a tight fit between the crank and the pan on the front 4 cylinders. The later Milidon pan have more room. Early ones do not. I have not checked the Moroso’s yet.

I call this system an Expandable Halo. You can run just the halo’s, or add the block supports, rail supports or the top supports. You can run to top support without the pan rails or vice versa. But it really needs all the trimmings to be worth using imo. It needs a lot of work yet. But I posted it because it is a different approach to what is usually seen on the bottom end of an engine.


I have some more economical models done for the spacer style that I posted first too. I used formed 3/8 plate to make the spacer instead of 3/4 aluminum or steel.
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Last edited by Jay S; 02-18-2020 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Edit
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