[Formulajones]

That's what air cooled vw's have used for decades, and they work very good by the way

[Formulajones]

Just an interesting tidbit to add to the break in oil discussion.
The blueprint 598 crate I bought came with a warranty and in the paperwork they are very adamant about running break in oil for the first 500 miles or it voids the warranty. They are also specific to use the green stuff, penngrade break in oil. They have a couple other substitutes but the green stuff is there first choice and I can see that's what they already had in the engine.
It's been run on the dyno already with penngrade and I would imagine rings are seated and things are already happy, but they want a break in procedure done anyway and this is a roller cam engine.

Probably overkill at this point but doesn't hurt anything either.

[Tim Corcoran]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Just an interesting tidbit to add to the break in oil discussion.
The blueprint 598 crate I bought came with a warranty and in the paperwork they are very adamant about running break in oil for the first 500 miles or it voids the warranty. They are also specific to use the green stuff, penngrade break in oil. They have a couple other substitutes but the green stuff is there first choice and I can see that's what they already had in the engine.
It's been run on the dyno already with penngrade and I would imagine rings are seated and things are already happy, but they want a break in procedure done anyway and this is a roller cam engine.

Probably overkill at this point but doesn't hurt anything either.

What are the other substitutes they recommend?

[Formulajones]

Reading it straight from the paperwork they want these specific break in oils.
Their own name brand of course part number BPP710. I'm sure a relabeled brand but no idea what.
The other 3 are.....

Driven/Joe Gibbs part #01806
Lucas part #10630-1
Brad Penn part #70216

They are all listed as straight 30 weight and non synthetic.

Then they get even more specific.
They want that run for 500 miles then changed to a non synthetic regular service 10-30 or 10-40 and the same brands are mentioned with the addition of Valvoline VR1.

They want that ran through for 6000 miles and then it says run what ever oil you wish but they seem adamant in the instructions no synthetic for the first 6000 miles..

Thought that was all pretty interesting, so in the interest of keeping the 3 year 50,000 mile warranty alive I'm supposed to follow their guidelines.

[Formulajones]

I already have a box of the green driven break in oil here I'll use as recommended. I can see the left over break in oil they had in the engine is green so I'll continue that for their 500 mile interval.

After that I guess I'll run VR1 for the 6000 mile interval even though I hate to use that but it's readily available. I'll have to change that every couple thousand miles because that stuff doesn't have much of an additive package so those oil changes are going to get expensive. Not looking forward to that. I haven't made up my mind yet I might order more green stuff and continue to run that for 6000 miles but I need to look into their additive package first. If it's better than VR1 and I'm thinking it is then it might actually save me money with less oil change intervals during the 6000 mile run. Maybe one less. I'll have to do the math on all that when I get to that point.

[zippy]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I have added to the engine assembly process (about 25 years ago) taking a paint marker and putting a white line on the visible portion of the pushrods just below the rocker arms. Once the "fresh" engine is warmed up, timing set, and fluids topped of I idle it really slow and remove the valve covers for a quick verification that ALL the pushrods are spinning like they should. I then dump the oil and catch some of it in a clear glass jar and cut the filter open for inspection. If all looks well we commense to run them like we stole them!.......

Cliff, do you do this pushrod check before the cam break in period of 20 min? Just curious on how bad it is to stop an engine before the 20 min @ 2000rpm break in period?

[Sirrotica]

It's too bad there isn't an oil filter that would extend oil change intervals of the expensive boutique oil, filter out all the breakin particulate on the first pass down to 2 microns, and extend the weak additive package depletion of the high dollar boutique oil.

Not to mention the UOA (used oil analysis) will come back telling you there is plenty of life left in that oil, It's as clean as when you poured it in the engine, the additive package is still good, and no need to change it.

Barring fuel contamination, or coolant contamination, you safely extend the oil life easily 3-4 times.

We all know that by pass filters have no place on classic muscle cars, and they are ugly, so no way that could work..................LMAO

396 CHEVELLE BY PASS FILTER:



The highly engineered oils aren't cheap, and even daily driver oil is inching it's way up in price. Flushing the crankcase often with fresh, high dollar oils, and using only a full flow filter that allows all the fines to keep recirculating, plus depleting the additive package rapidly, is getting fairly expensive.

Trusting a $10,000 engine to a $10 filter, you decide.

[65 Lamnas]

Has anybody ever read thru this?

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 65 Lamnas

Has anybody ever read thru this?

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com

I've previously read through portions of his blog, but it would take many hours to read everyting pertaining to lubricants though. I believe that reading through this previously that I found out that more ZDDP isn't always better, and too much can have diminishing effects.

There are more than one sacrificial anti wear agents other than zinc, and balance of the chemistry is very important overall.

The more engineered an oils additives are, the more important that the balance isn't upset by doctoring with aftermarket additives.

[Tim Corcoran]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

It's too bad there isn't an oil filter that would extend oil change intervals of the expensive boutique oil, filter out all the breakin particulate on the first pass down to 2 microns, and extend the weak additive package depletion of the high dollar boutique oil.

Not to mention the UOA (used oil analysis) will come back telling you there is plenty of life left in that oil, It's as clean as when you poured it in the engine, the additive package is still good, and no need to change it.

Barring fuel contamination, or coolant contamination, you safely extend the oil life easily 3-4 times.

We all know that by pass filters have no place on classic muscle cars, and they are ugly, so no way that could work..................LMAO

396 CHEVELLE BY PASS FILTER:



The highly engineered oils aren't cheap, and even daily driver oil is inching it's way up in price. Flushing the crankcase often with fresh, high dollar oils, and using only a full flow filter that allows all the fines to keep recirculating, plus depleting the additive package rapidly, is getting fairly expensive.

Trusting a $10,000 engine to a $10 filter, you decide.

Is this the filter that uses toilet paper for the filter element?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 65 Lamnas

Has anybody ever read thru this?

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com

I have read through quite a bit of it in the past, it is indeed very long. Since this thread is more just talking about break in oil I will narrow his thoughts from his blog too only engine break in. He has a lot of data for oil testing on his oil film strength testing machine. He is a Mechanical Engineer with a lot of expertise on the subject. A lot of great info in his blog. His go to oil, is a 5w30 full synthetic Quaker State that he claims is better for engine break in than the nondetergent break in oils that are high in ZDDP. All due to it’s film strength, the number 2 oil he likes is a full synthetic 5w30 Amsoil, seconded highest on his machine. He has interesting results from his testing. Things like some non synthetics often beat the synthetics in his tests, and the oil weight has very little too do with the results. For instance Valvoline VR1 10w30 synthetic blend actually has a little better numbers than the 10w30 VR1 full synthetic, and diesel oils are towards the bottom on his tests. He and his machine have tested hundreds of oils. The Quaker State has a fairly week detergent package and looses it’s viscosity pretty quickly with use. I think it’s weak detergent package and great film strength is what makes it a decent break in oil for a synthetic. He claims it’s the film strength itself.

Jmho.. I think he puts too much weight on his one type of test, and there is more to this than the film strength. Most that have a special oil for break in will say the goal of break in oil should be to break the engine in with the least amount of metal removed, and as quickly as possible, and limited run time. Most of the break in oils get a stronger film strength as the oil gets hotter, due to the extra zddp in it. That is a good attribute for break in oil.

I think it is more important to use proper break in oil now than it has ever been in the past. But that is not because of the lack in ZDDP in oil, I think it is because the machining is not as good and some parts are softer. Making the break in more critical for parts to last, the higher ZDDP oils simply interacts differently seating in parts than lower ZDDP levels. He says engines break in very quickly anyway, and the film strength is most important factor for protecting the components in the engine, even for proper break in. He has a bit different view than most. I have done a lot of engine breaks that have receive no special treatment to though. Which backs his ideas up. He makes some compelling arguments that are different than the main stream oil companies….I would not in anyway want to go head to head with 540Rat in a debate. He is a sharp guy!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

Is this the filter that uses toilet paper for the filter element?

Yes it is, I have multiple units on my cars, and trucks over the past 14 years, and each unit has paid for itself in savings within 3 years on a daily driver. The units were patented about 70 years ago, they are manufactured currently in the USA, sold through Hot Shots Secret.

Although I use Frantz filters, there are many manufacturers that sell their own rendition of by pass filter sytems. You can even buy parts to build your own system, and save money over buying a kit. Usually you can build a system for under $100.

[Jim Moshier]

toilet paper.... well, Actually I believe they Frantz are using cellulose media like most filters do now. Can you use toilet paper??? sure I guess so

or/ Frantz Filter has created a melt-blown synthetic oil filter media that has a graduated stage process that filters down to 2 microns, yielding true depth filtration. The filter media has been created from 100% polypropylene and lasts two to three times longer* than cellulose media. Synthetic oil filter media has two other advantages: it has more consistent flow rate and holds its form better than cellulose-based filter media.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Jim Moshier

toilet paper.... well, Actually I believe they Frantz are using cellulose media like most filters do now. Can you use toilet paper??? sure I guess so

or/ Frantz Filter has created a melt-blown synthetic oil filter media that has a graduated stage process that filters down to 2 microns, yielding true depth filtration. The filter media has been created from 100% polypropylene and lasts two to three times longer* than cellulose media. Synthetic oil filter media has two other advantages: it has more consistent flow rate and holds its form better than cellulose-based filter media.

Hot shots secret wanted to be a little more sophiosticated about their filter elements, so they presized them to the cannister, and wrapped them in cellophane packaging, and upped the price. TP will still work, but I believe they wanted to distance themselves from that lowbrow connotation. They offer the cellulose option for $4.95 plus shipping. In case anyone wants to know, the TP is cellulose, so your buying essentiially the same thing as TP.

They also came out with a man made synthetic option, as mentioned, but synthetic materials won't trap moisture in the filter element as the cellulose does. The TP has worked fine for me for the last 14 years, and since the early 50s when the filter was first manufactured, all told narly 70 years they've used the janitorial style TP. If someone wants to pay for the synthetic element, then have at it, but I'm just fine with whats worked for 70 years.

The synthetic is priced at $10.95 plus shipping, and is currently "out of stock".

TP today is not usually "out of stock" unless theres a pandemic going on, and people start hoarding it.

When I became a dealer for the former owner of Frantz products, I had to buy a quantity of filters to become a dealer. When Hot shots secret bought the Frantz operation, I was no longer a dealer, and I would have had to go through placing another qualifying order with the new owners to retain my standing as a Frantz dealer. Yeah, that pretty much soured me on Hot shots secret, I already paid once, I wasn't about to pay twice.............

I like the product, but I'm not a fan of how they screwed over the dealers that were selling their products before they bought out the Frantz business. A whole bunch of dealers got tossed under the bus when the company changed hands, and past ties, and marketing agreements meant nothing to the new owners. I have other sources to buy anything I need in the way of parts, so I choose to not buy anything from Hot shots secret.

They're located in Ohio now about an hour from me, so I could place an order, and save freight, but that won't ever happen as I'd have to pay list price, because I'm no longer a dealer in their eyes.

[Formulajones]

Oil analysis tells me that the good oil I use along with a decent store bought filter is still doing ok at 6000 miles and that's good enough for me. That saves me plenty of oil changes with the fleet that satisfies me, with a couple cars well over 200k miles like that and still running fine. They owe me nothing.

[78w72]

Lots of modern engines go to 200-350k+ miles using regular store bought filters. Some foreign engines go to 500k to 1 million miles using spin on filters & regular oils. Healthy classics can easily go 100k+ on normal filters.

Good synthetic oils can go to 7500-10k & many still test ok with analysis. Adding 1 qt of new oil to worn out old oil does NOT replenish all the additives.

Toilet paper filters are great, but they are intended for large fleet vehicle companies or over the road semi trucks that do a 500k - 1 million miles in a few years. Go to any car show or drag race event, you wont see any TP filters, or if you do it will be 1 out of thousands once every few years.... theres a reason for that.

[Jay S]

I like oil analysis on timely intervals, but don’t do it often these days, and are often behind on maintenance. We have a fleet of off road and road equipment, it is hard to keep up. I see the advantage of the bypass filter systems over the long haul. Not sure how helpful it is for break in, the systems is too overwhelmed by contaminate’s, certainly won’t hurt though.

I’ve went to blocking the bypass on my Pontiac’s. Most my Pontiac’s have headers, and I run a tiny filter with no bypass, I admit I am not thrilled with that tiny filter. But I change the oil and filter often, the difference of having the bypass plugged is noticeable on inspections versus the stock bypass. Everything looks better with the bypass plugged, less deep scratch’s on the bearings, I think it is from smaller contaminates. The smaller contaminates are likely especially helpful if you run a roller cam.

For break in we generally change the break in oil and filter once after 30 minutes, and a second time before it hits 500 miles running a high zddp oil, not break in oil with extreme levels. Some engines that are really beat on I will change the oil several times before I hit 500 miles just to make sure I am keeping contaminants out of it. I have not often ran break in oil beyond the first 30 minutes. The blueprint break in oil info is interesting.


One of the engines I built we didn’t have a break in oil handy so I just went and pickup up a Lucas break in additive from Napa. It has an aggressive flat tappet in it. The engine didn’t get running right away and sat more than a year. We ended up putting a bigger engine in the car before it got started, so we pulled it out for the big engine. The oil pan was special for that combo so I drained the oil and switched pans. When I drained the oil it was obvious all the ZDDP additive drained out first and separated from the engine oil. My knee jerk reaction at the time was that was bad and not going to help much. But, after some research, I think that was wrong. No, it likely isn’t as good as a dedicated break in oil, but I think it is still better than a oil with low ZDDP, espically for that first 30 minutes. Even if the film strength ends up a lot lower with additive, the engines still needs the ZDDP for break in, especially with a flat tappet cam. I think it is beneficial on roller engines too, but it is because the ZDDP serves as a micro polisher. It’s job is to help micro-polish parts, most helpful on flat tappet cams when the lifter is getting scrubbed over the cam during break in. The biggest problem I think with 540Rats testing is it does not have much to do with the scrubbing action a flat tappet cam will have.

[Jay S]

The added cylinder washing from carbureted gasoline engines versus TBI, MPFI, and DI accounts for lot of the difference in modern stuff going extra miles over our old engines.

[Cliff R]

"Cliff, do you do this pushrod check before the cam break in period of 20 min? Just curious on how bad it is to stop an engine before the 20 min @ 2000rpm break in period?"

If you are paying attention when adjusting the lifter preload and turning the engine you can see the pushrods rotate.

I don't do a 20 minute "break-in" period, never have. It is far MORE important to static time the distributor at 10-12 degrees BTDC and fill the carb with fuel for instant start-ups. I only run my engines a few minutes around 1200-1500rpms till warmed up, let them idle, double check timing, set idle speed and idle mixture, then get them to idle really slow, shut them down and remove the valve covers.

I'llcheck oil and coolant levels, then fire them up, and while idling really slow verify that ALL the pushrods are spinning. Then I'll dump the oil, catch some in a glass jar and look for "glitter". Then I cut the filter open to make sure it's clean. If you pass all of that the engine is good to go........

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I like oil analysis on timely intervals, but don’t do it often these days, and are often behind on maintenance.
For break in we generally change the break in oil and filter once after 30 minutes, and a second time before it hits 500 miles running a high zddp oil, not break in oil with extreme levels. Some engines that are really beat on I will change the oil several times before I hit 500 miles just to make sure I am keeping contaminants out of it. I have not often ran break in oil beyond the first 30 minutes. The blueprint break in oil info is interesting.

Yeah I'm not sure what to think about running the break in for 500 miles either. I guess they are being overly cautious. Their dyno procedure has already broken in the rings with a few slow speed high load runs before full pulls were made, and they performed a blow by test while on the dyno as well to make sure everything is seated and happy. Technically it shouldn't need any more break in, and I've seen videos of guys just start ripping on these things right out of the crate.
In the interest of doing what they are asking I filled the crankcase with Penngrade break in oil but I highly doubt I'm going to baby this thing for 500 miles, and I plan to drain a sample after a couple hundred miles for an oil analysis, and decide then if I should switch to regular oil, run it some more for another oil analysis to make sure it's all happy.