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Old 09-12-2019, 03:06 AM
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Default Look At This Oily Mess (Valve Covers)

I'm obviously missing a trick somewhere. As far as I can see oil is pushing past the valve cover gaskets (which are thick ones but seem in good condition) as well as the factory PCV breather pipe and the filler cap. The engine was recently re-ringed but I think all of that should have bedded in by now. It's maybe 2000 miles ago. How do you guys keep your engines pretty whilst actually driving them every day?

Passenger side


Driver side


Sam
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:34 AM
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How is your PCV valve hooked up? I assume the one in the picture runs to the air cleaner (Which is not PCV). I would also do a compression test of all cylinders. Rings don't always seat. You might want to take a look inside your distributor also. I'm guessing it's full of oil too.

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Old 09-12-2019, 05:38 AM
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Yeah, you're right. It's not the PCV. That goes from the valley pan to the carb. Anyway, the vent tube to the air cleaner. Whatever it's called.

Distributor is nice and dry.

Sam

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Old 09-12-2019, 05:43 AM
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Everything needs to be dried off and that grommet must get siliconed into the valve cover Sam.
How many miles did it take to get that way of is it mainly from blasting Round to check timing settings?

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Old 09-12-2019, 05:47 AM
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Steve,

I'm daily driving and pretty busy. It's probably taken all 2000 miles to get like that. I see a lot from the oil filler cap also. As far as I recall that's not a bad gasket or a loose fit. I do have a lot more high speed cruise in my commute than I used to..

Sam

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Old 09-12-2019, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Everything needs to be dried off and that grommet must get siliconed into the valve cover Sam.
Totally disagree with that. You shouldn't need to silicone the grommet. I guess he should silicone the pipe to the grommet also? Treat the cause and not the symptom.

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Old 09-12-2019, 08:52 AM
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Yeah, the grommets over time shrink and get loose. New grommets sometimes are also not quite the right size either.

It's pretty much a mechanical/fit thing, what you see there is about all that can be done, unless you go to aftermarket covers. Even then it can still spew out a push-in breather.

Make sure you get a good PCV, that too is a crap-shoot these days. Think I bought 3 to get a good one this time around.

.

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Old 09-12-2019, 08:41 PM
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After its warmed up good and hot -
leave it running/idling and remove oil fill cap , and that breather tube from valve cover.

See how much oily smoke blow-by it puts out from the open holes.
RPM it some and see if it increases.

That should give you a quick insight to the ring sealing factor.

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Old 09-12-2019, 09:56 PM
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What kind of a oil cap is that? The picture only shows a little of it. You may need a new cap. Grommet could be incorrect on other side...I use Permatex ultra black on things when needed. The latest RTV they make, works very well.

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Old 09-13-2019, 01:36 AM
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Valve cover gaskets: If you have had the covers off and put them back on without cleaning the mating surfaces, that oil will creep out...a little oil goes a long way.
To dress the covers for a good seal and even pressure on the gasket. Bolt them to the head without gaskets, then chase the entire perimeter of the cover with a 1/2 drive extension square end and small hammer, or just a hammer if you have good access..
Attach the gaskets to the cover with minimal sealant/adheasive and allow it to cure with cover bolts just snug. The main problem is usually the cover is distorted at the bolt area. Tighten bolts once adhesive or sealant cures. Then if you take the cover off, you just wipe the gasket and valve cover rail on the head and reinstall. There is a fine line on how tight you can tighten the valve cover bolts before you distort the cover, thick gaskets can be tricky. Load spreaders will really help from re distorting the covers after truing, but aren't a necessity. (BTW, the long aftermarket ones for SBC engines don't work with stock Pontiac covers!)
I like the black gaskets that come in full Fel Pro engine sets and have had excellent, multiple reuse, leak free service from them.
You can also tap the perimeter of the valve cover after they are installed and tightened the seal further. The very experienced engine assembler where I use to work did this on most all thin tin covers when he assembled older engines. Over tightening the bolts to try to seal covers better often makes the leakage worse.If you do this, make sure the cover are not cracked in the bolt area, or bend upward near them, and be careful not to crack them while truing them up.

Be sure that the hose used for the PCV valve is the correct type of hose rated for service under vacuum and the presence of oil, or it will suck flat... especially when really hot. Sometimes just the inner layer deteriorates....regular fuel hose is the worst. Just a restriction without a complete sucking flat of the hose can really decrease flow crankcase evacuation under certain operating condition.

Grommets definitively shrink with age, and some of the replacements are worse than the old ones, as stated already. You need a nice tight fit. Same with the oil cap, you can tweek the tips of the oil cap to tighten the seating of the cap, to the "ramps" for the cap in the cover for a tight draw down on the cap gasket. But you'll need to clean the cap and gasket area oil free to keep oil from creeping out after. Again, a liittle oil goes a long way in making a mess.

If your rear main seal is not leaking, you likely just need to get a better/good seal at the points of leakage.
If the rear main is leaking also, then you more likely have excessive blowby or inadequate crankcase evacuation from the PCV system. Further diagnosis would be warranted to find the cause of blowby or inadequacy in crankcase ventilation.

Having a T/A, you surely have the shaker air filter housing, is the breather element from the tube from the valve cover in the filter housing oil soaked?

If not, this also would point me to poor sealing at the points of leakage over excessive blowby or inadequet PCV flow.

An excellent point was made to fix the problem not contain it, but an accurate diagnosis must be made first.

HTH SAM

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Last edited by STEELCITYFIREBIRD; 09-13-2019 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:27 PM
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Assuming the engine is in good mechanical condition, then the PCV system is not able to handle the amount of blow-by gasses you are making. Having a good fit from the air cleaner pre-filter to hose to grommet is important. However, if all that fits well and still oil is escaping, the PCV valve isn't flowing enough. #1 cause is using 3/8" fuel line for the PCV hose from valley cover valve to the carb. They suck shut very easily, especially if cut and routed with a tight radius anywhere. I like to use power steering return hose which is much stiffer and will not suck shut. If that is not the problem #2 cause is the incorrect generic PCV valve. You need to get the correct PCV valve for the application. NOS would be best, if available. 2nd choice would be an AC brand. Generic ones often produce what I see in your Pics. Good luck.

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Old 09-15-2019, 02:10 AM
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Yeah, I am still kicking myself because I was thinking the same thing. I replaced the PCV valve for no good reason and then I couldn't find my old one. Sure hope I didn't toss it accidentally. I did suspect it probably wouldn't be so good on the basis of "new" parts usually aren't as good. Can't think what I was thinking quite when I did replace it. I wasn't aware of a problem with the old one..

D'Oh!

I think it's a combination of these things. My compression numbers are good and my air cleaner pre-filter isn't soaked. Replaced the darn breather grommet as well for no good reason. New one was probably worse..

OK. Does anyone know where any decent ones can be ordered? Grommets and PCV valves, I mean? The PCV I had was from our hosts. I'm guessing it's a decent reproduction and what I need is a used or NOS..

Also, some of the seepage is probably old. I'm not sure I actually cleaned off the engine after my whole episode with having to re-adjust the rockers by the side of the road after I forgot to cinch down the set screws..

Sam

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Old 09-16-2019, 02:29 PM
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Silicone the old grommets or replace with new. Pull the PCV valve and check if it's working by placing your thumb over it while connected to your intake. If it has strong suction (pulls your thumb tightly to it), it is working. Weak or no suction, it's bad.

For the valve covers, I always sand the gasket rail surface with a palm sander and 220 grit and then glue the gaskets to the valve covers with 3M weatherstrip adhesive. I spray the gaskets, press them in place, place the valve covers gasket side down and weight them with a couple sections of 4x4 cutoffs until they are dried in place. It's old school, but I find that it works better than silicone which just lets the gaskets slide around.

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Old 09-16-2019, 02:36 PM
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^ I like this. Forgot that's the way we used to do it and it worked on the valve covers.

Like Sam, where can we find a quality PCV valve???

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Old 09-16-2019, 03:19 PM
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another thing to mention, although it looks like the leak is coming from up top by breather/grommet, is to get some of the steel spreader bars for the valve covers, mainly on the 2 lower bolts. helps spread the load & doesnt warp the covers as much as just the bolts.

i agree with attaching the gaskets to the bottom of the cover, but i like to use a good RTV like ultra black. apply it to the valve cover & spread it out thin, then let tack up a little, the gaskets will stick to it & not slide around at all. then flip them over & put some weight on them & let dry... or just install them & lightly tighten down, then final torque the next morning. never had a v/c gasket leak doing it that way & a good RTV is more oil resistant than weatherstrip adhesive... but either one will work fine.

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Old 09-16-2019, 06:18 PM
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might be a bad ring or broken piston. is it just on one side or both?

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Old 09-18-2019, 08:34 AM
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I've been doing some reading. You've really been through the ringer with this engine. Dropped a valve due to rockers hitting retainers, had to sleeve the block. Cylinders not round and you tried to straighten that out with a ball hone? Couldn't degree the cam and now you have an engine that wants to run with only 18 degrees of timing or it detonates? Knowing that's a proven recipe with that compression and camshaft I'd have to agree with others there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere in the combo, and the procedures done has probably led to some serious blow by. Distributor looks a little scary and the carb recipe that should have worked from Cliff isn't even in the carb anymore, sounds like you completely changed that around. I don't think that engine is going to accept anything that is considered proven or normal at this point.

I feel for ya being in a foreign country and trying to work on a classic that no one over there knows anything about, let along trying to find parts for it. But that thing sounds like it's a candidate for a complete tear down and rebuild, preferably back in the states here somewhere.

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Old 09-19-2019, 03:04 AM
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Formula,

It does feel like a bit of a grind that the car and I have been through the past couple years but I'm not sure I agree with your apocalyptic assessment. It's true that I'm without easy access to common parts and chemicals. It's true that I have to order and wait for parts. It's true that my workshop is outside in the heat, humidity and dust and that I have only a small toolbox. Also, I'm a professional geek and only an amateur mechanic. On the other hand:
• I've had this car sixteen years and it was a basket case when I bought it
• She's still running!
• That whole sleeve thing ended fairly well. I was able to hone to size and with under .001 taper
• I haven't thrown in the towel
• You see so many posts about problems because I am cautious

I felt the same way about the combo wrong fundamentally somewhere, hence the posts, but I feel it is now fairly well explained:
• Pistons are zero deck so I know I'm at 10.2:1 with the .039 FelPro head gaskets
• Heads are new untouched Edelbrock round port CNC chamber 87cc
• Crank is still the beautiful piece that Paul kindly prepared for me
• New rings again, new bearings, the sleeved bore only has less than .001 runout
So not a lot of unknowns in the short block.

So, as goes the carb.. I'm fairly proud that one of the early things I did with this car was dial in the QJet and it's generally been a good strong clean runner. My thread on the carb recently was really to do with the fact that I had been sent a "recipe" for my 197 heads and 068 clone cam which was almost correct (and only not fully correct because my cam was going). What I was asking was if that recipe needed any changes going to the Edelbrock round port 87cc CNC chamber heads and Crower 60919 RAIV type cam. Actually, the car drives great with the carb recipe it had before. My only reason to experiment is the current combo's hatred of much timing and trying any little thing to improve that by tenths since I'm basically an out-of-town commuter at this point putting about 250 miles a week on to work and back.

The cam degreeing thing I feel is a little unfair. I knew the old cam was too small. I had good confidence that the Crower would make the combo happy. A cam swap in the car outdoors in the heat, dust and humidity is pretty tough. It's not like doing it in your garage. And apart from the physical exertion is the concern of not leaving the engine "open" for any longer than necessary in that environment. I've degreed all the cams I installed indoors. It was carefully "dot to dot". But I didn't at the time feel I needed to degree it. 20-20 hindsight and all that. I can still degree it in-car but I feel the cam behaviour is already fairly well explained by:
• Crower seems to use a smaller profile on this cam these days. Jay says he has degreed it quite a bit "smaller" than, for example, the Melling 041 clone
• It's 112 LSA. 041 and many other clones are 114. Some are 113. But the Crower is 112
• My heads weren't ground for it so I can't run 1.65 rockers
So, basically, my engine probably doesn't have enough cam for low octane fuel. The high octane fuel on sale here is basically the same as US or UK low octane fuel (95 RON, about same as 89 octane US MOTOR + RON / 2 rating)
Ultimately, I'm sure the cam needs changing. But for now I'm just trying to make it as happy as possible.

So, carb: It pretty much IS the same recipe. If you think about it, my recent changes to secondaries have brought me closer to the original recipe, as Cliff confirmed here. That recipe works better now because this cam doesn't have flat lobes. I'm only trying slight variations to see if I can quell any lean spots that might be making my ping any worse.

Cam: Meh. I doubt it's off much. I'm sceptical that the engine would take timing even if it were perfect

Distributor: Actually, I'm reasonably proud of that thing. It's a real GM HEI. Not sloppy. New cap and rotor. Real GM module. MSD 8mm custom fit wires. I'm running real vintage GM weights, centre cam and stiff stock springs (face down as correct for CCW distributors). My limit devices for mechanical timing and vacuum advance are adjustable (which I consider essential since this isn't the final combo) and I can limit the vac not just for total (with a stop that limits the end, not the beginning, of travel) but for spring strength. I think I've got the ignition advance part of the equation as dialled as it can be.

Heat and humidity: Really really high. And I can't fix that

Fuel: Low octane. And I can't fix that

Ease of doing even minor stuff like a jet change: Really tough. I swapped jets a few days ago. Had to do it in the work parking garage on my lunch hour. In my suit. Lots of weird looks. Literally so much sweat dripping off me that I couldn't tighten the screws properly and my glasses were getting blurry with salt stains.

Well, anyway. I'm not asking for anyone to cry me a river. But it's about 1200 miles since the rebuild now. No black, blue or white smoke. Even with the retarded timing she will pull hard (though, I'm sure, not as hard as when she can take full timing). I'm driving in some pretty hellish heat and although the needle has crept up high in stationary traffic a few times it comes right back down once we are moving. Again, I think when the engine can take full timing even that will go away. The TH350 I built some years ago is still alive and shifting crisply, Cliff's converter seems to be doing great. It's really pretty solid.

I will report back on this oily mess. I think I first need to get it cleaned off. I think I then need to try actually wiping the bottom of the gaskets and the rails dry. KISS, as someone said earlier. The breather filter in the air cleaner is not soaked or anything. I've got no reason to think I have a ton of blow-by but maybe if I get time one day I will do another compression test.

I'm really happy for all the help. Don't want to come off ungrateful at all. But, much as I would love to just get Paul to send me a totally perfect shortblock it's not happening anytime soon.

Sam

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Old 09-19-2019, 09:38 AM
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You have to keep in mind my post was meant in the nicest way possible. I know it's not what you want to hear.

You'd be surprised these days degreeing a camshaft how far off they can be. Dot to dot doesn't really mean anything anymore. I've had them recently be off as much as 6 degrees dot to dot. Would it run? sure, but not like it should, and would likely need some wonky timing setting to get it to run right. I think it's also highly unlikely the Crower cam is too small for what you're doing. There are way too many people that run that exact Crower cam with success at 10:1 compression ratios to be ignored. Something is fundamentally off with the build to have 10:1 compression with aluminum heads and a 230 @ .050 cam on a 112 or 113 (Crower card says 113, website says 112) and yet still have an engine that can't manage pump fuel. 18 degrees of total timing??

Me personally, I'm not confident your cylinders are round and you likely have ring seat issues based off those oily pictures in a very short amount of time. That process really needs to be done with a torque plate. I just finished a 455 here that was done by a previous professional shop, and when Paul touched the cylinders with his hone and a torque plate bolted on, there were several areas the hone didn't even touch. So you can imagine what a ball hone accomplishes. I would have to guess you might of seen less taper (if you actually measured with a bore gauge) but once those heads are bolted on all bets are off.. It's a back yard way of putting a fresh hone on a block for ring seat and not meant to fix tapered bores, but I understand the situation you're in. You have to do what you can considering the circumstances. Will it work? Yeah for a while, but there's no guarantee you won't have blow by, and oil in the combustion process just makes managing pump fuel even harder.
Hopefully it gets you by through your stay over there but long term that would be something I'd have to tear back down and do right if I were keeping the car.


Last edited by Formulajones; 09-19-2019 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:53 AM
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Formula,

So, my method of measuring the bore was by measuring the gap in a top ring at various depths. So I am sure about the amount of taper. Is that cylinder less round? Probably. Was the bore for the previous rebuild done with a torque plate? I really don’t know. But I guess the big question is, would out of round cylinders make it ping on pump gas when it shouldn’t? I can’t think how it would. If I had a lot of blowby would that make it ping?

Seems to me that between the compression ratio, the cam and the cam timing are all the factors that should be dictating what is happening. Or am I missing something?

Those are real questions. If I missed something that I can fix that would be great news.

And, yes, sure would like to have the short block properly sorted out.

Sam

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