[tomnt]

Have delt with Bruce for a couple of years, only problem, was some things take time. Estimates and final prices have been fair. Got hand ported E-heads from RRE two years ago. My son purchased a 428 (400 block) shortblock from them this past summer. We sent the heads back, Bruce picked a cam. Westec dynoed it, 661 HP, with Bruce's carb,14 less with our carb. When it finally got to us we put it in a 1970 Firebird street car. Best so far 10.79 at 126. Don't know what it weighs, just put full exhuast on for inspection, had bullet mufflers, with turndowns. Will see if it slows down. Has 11.43 cr and have been running it on 93 octane Texaco pump gas, no nitrous. Best 60 ft has been 1.69 with M/T et-street tires. To get on PP1 you need to click on Login to New Board then on Forum Index, both engines are featured in Pump Gas Street Motors on the bottom.

[This message was edited by tomnt on December 25, 2002 at 11:37 AM.]

[This message was edited by tomnt on December 25, 2002 at 11:43 AM.]

[Jack Ferris]

Welcome.......
Post your ET's when your actually running it. Im interested in the real world numbers not Westech's dyno #'s. Either way, sounds like a good set up. Good luck to you.......

Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[Tom Vaught]

Welcome to the board, Travis,

Quote:

"If it runs mid 10's then what are U still gonna bash Bruce? Im just curious."

Just a comment. There is a guy in the Detroit area
with an all steel tempest that presently runs
10.57 with his combo. No spray. I have seen several Chevelles (also steel cars back seat removed and 6 point) run 10.70s at 127-ish MPH
with dynoed 550 hp engines. You say your engine
makes 650 and you want to run 10.50s? Why so slow? You should be in the 9s with that kind of
power and any weight reduction on the car.

I have no printable comments about your engine builder. Tom V.

[Jack Ferris]

What Tom said- My 3200# GTO runs 10.40's @127 with a 663 hp 469. However, because of the elevation I run at(4400 ft.) I loose 17% of my HP which calculates to 551 HP. Im guessing at a sea level track 9.80's would be about right. If your making a true 650 HP then mid 10's should be a slam dunk. Show me the money...Show me the money!!! Let us in on the rest of the combo...Let me guess a 230@.050 HYD Roller??? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
BTW Don Kennedy makes that much power with 9.4:1 and iron SD heads.....Whats that you cant make power with iron heads??


Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[Brian Baker]

What I'm about to say is in no way bashing Westech, just pointing to some observations.

In the recent PHR engine buildup article that Bruce ran his "King 350" in against several other builders, there were 3 different dyno facilities used to qualify for the contest. Westech was one.

The builders that qualified using one of the other two dyno facilities all had lower numbers than they did at Westech during the contest. The builders that used Westech to qualify did not see as large of a power increase from the qualifying runs to the contest runs as other competitors did. This is not to say that Westech has a "happy dyno", on the contrary. Their dyno was tuned by Superflow technicians prior to the contest, and is considered "dead nuts on".

There are certainly some comparisons to be made between the Westech dyno and other dyno facilities nationwide that use similar equipment. It would appear that the Westech dyno is more efficient.

Now you know why Bruce has all of these large dyno numbers with his combo's. On a "lesser" dyno they may only produce "average" numbers.

[Goatman]

Dyno numbers can be manipulated a million ways. A "savy" engine builder knows this and uses it to hook customers.

Here's the thing:

If you can truely do work over and above all your competitors, a number of things will happen. First, you'll have a majority of the work in your feild. Second, you will charge, and recieve, a premium for your work. Third, your reputation will GROW among the people that use your services.

This particular builder has none of the three characteristics of someone who has done something that no one else can figure out how to do.

2 +2 = 4. Its that simple.

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[Tom Vaught]

Brian,

I think a great deal of your knowledge but I totally disagree with the following statement:

"Their dyno was tuned by Superflow technicians prior to the contest, and is considered "dead nuts on".

No disagreement there!

Quote:

"There are certainly some comparisons to be made between the Westech dyno and other dyno facilities nationwide that use similar equipment. It would appear that the Westech dyno is more efficient."


ALL dynos are calibrated using a torque beam of
known length and a documented set of weights. You
put a certain weight on the beam at a calibration
point and the read-out better say you have that amount of torque force on the beam. You do this for all of the calibration weights and develop a
torque sweep for the beam for its range. You can
repeat the checks a second time to measure any
variability in the process and also use a different checking point on the beam to confirm a
given torque point (like you do on different ranges on a Super Flow Flow bench).

Torque is Torque. There is no such thing as one
dyno have a more efficient torque reading vs another dyno. If the other dynos shops did not scale the dyno correctly or if the dyno drums are worn out (high leakage) then the people need to send them back to the dyno manufacturer and have them rebuilt or replaced. Big difference between a worn out dyno vs a calibrated error dyno which
can be corrected with proper scaling equipment.

Tom V.

[Goatman]

That goes for you too, BRIAN. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

Chance favors the prepared mind.

[bmpmdf]

The others were also allowed to retune their engines for the conditions at Westech. Most got more thru changing for sea level. The ones already in Cal. were tuned for it the first round. But it seems to be a happy dyno.

[TIAUTOMAN]

Hello
Ok to answer a few question.
First the price of the engine is around 11,500.
I bought everything, started with a crank
This is carb to pan including dyno test.
car is a 65GTO.
10's shouldnt be a problem. the limiting factor
will be suspension, chassis ( I have a lot of work to do)
I hope the car will weigh about 3400 to 3500 with mne in it.
The car is not tubbed, has a 9in 4wd disc brakes.
Dropped 2 1/2 inches.
I also have a Big shot system which is not on the car, and wont be untill I make sure I can hook the car up on the motor.
The motor runs, sounds wicked. I am waiting on exhaust., and the cage. Its all about money

[TIAUTOMAN]

Now as far as the time frame, it was a long time......very long time. Most of the delay was ME.
when I started this project I was a full time student, and working full time. So I knew what I wanted and made a few calls. Talked to buter, and Some one at SD perf....and I talked to Bruce.
Bruce is the only one who took the time to talk about what I wanted to do...I was blown off by butler and SD, and thats fine. I was basically told to call back when i had 12k in my pocket.
Bruce gave me a list of parts to get and his prices. and I went from there. SOme parts i bought from him, and others from summit.
Some delays in build. Had to wait on heads from
summit (back order). Had to wait to get money.
There was a dyno delay, due to the PHR shoot out.
dyno time was booked for the month sept/oct.
Other than that Im really happy.

[TIAUTOMAN]

Ive sent out a few pics to some of you, if you would like to post them Knock your selves out.

[TIAUTOMAN]

And by the way I still think Rock and Roll does an awesome job.

[jim brady]

This is not really about Bruce's knowlege, it is about his personality and his business practices. He has taken advantage of people many times. He has sponsored events and then refused to give the prizes that he promised. He has tried to get involved in events that he was not a part of. Bruce has made his own problems nationwide. He is very talented as a writer and by the way some of his stuff runs a good engine builder, but he toots his own horn way to much. To make a long story short Bruce is his own worst enemy.

[Jack Ferris]

Nice looking motor Travis. No doubt it will run hard. Im sure R&R can make power. As can most of the folks here. Not to be negative but if your looking for people here to agree with you on your feelings about R&R you may be disappointed. Like I said earlier, post some ET's and the cars weight. The bottom line is what matters. Good Luck and thanks for the pics.
ps. You hit it dead on Jim
Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[This message was edited by Jack Ferris on December 28, 2002 at 11:02 AM.]

[jim brady]

At this point with all of the engine kits available almost anyone can put together a 650 hp Pontiac without to much trouble. This is not to say that your engine is not awsome. I am sure that it is and I am glad that you are happy with who you chose. That is what makes this world so interesting. Their are all different kinds of people out their and you have the right to chose who you feel comfortable with. I did notice on the S/S board that Bruce is trying to find out what tracks have the best air so that he can try and run some good no's with his dragster. It will be interesting to see how quick he can run.

[Jack Ferris]

Tell BMF to come run in our thin ass air. Your right Jim. A good portion of the R&D has been done and is now available to the public. A few phone calls and a Visa card and you'll heve a 650 hp fire breathing Pontiac on your door step. Look in a National Dragster and see how many people are building Big Block Chevy's. Its a supply and demand thing. We demand and they supply.

Wang whats with all the pictures it a parking lot.....

[Tom Vaught]

Travis,

Jim Brady has been racing since the 60s and has
had a lot of engines put together by top engine
builders. He has also whipped Bruce's cars on the
track more than a few times. He is more than talk
as he has actually raced Bruce in competition
which a lot of people on the board haven't.

I have known Bruce since he was going to Chaffey College in California and hanging out with Pete,
Tony Sizemore, Jerry (the engine builder), and
others. Bruce has a lot of knowledge and if he
got out of the California "Hollywood Star" mode
could be a real force in the business. As Jim B.
says he is his own worst enemy.

I am glad that he was willing to work with you on
your engine using your payment schedule and you
have an engine you are proud of. That is all that
matters. Take it to the track and the people on the board will try and help you go faster. Tom V.

[TIAUTOMAN]

I am shooting for a finish date in April. Its all about finances. And its expensive. If it comes down to it I will put it together and take it to the track In April for the Pontiac heaven Race in Phoenix. Actually I need it done before that So i can run the car a bit to get used to it.
This will be by far the fastest car i have driven.
I think I will take an extra pair of shorts.......

[Tom Vaught]

When you get the car together, talk to the track
people, tell them you are new to this car, and want to get used to it.

Go on several test and tune nights with less people hopefully. Inform the track that you only want to do launches and 330 runs initially. This will keep your speed down but let you get used to the car and the power on the launch, where it is going to go, etc. New combinations can be all over the track which makes you look worse than doing 330 runs.

Once you feel comfortable running 330s and you have good 60 ft and 330 times, try some 1/8 mile
stuff. Once you are confortable there try some
1/4 mile stuff but not full out as you need to know your brakes will work for the 650 hp worth
of MPH.

Don't feel like you have to rush through any of this as this is the way ROY HILL teaches his PRO
STOCK drivers. If they learn this way so can you. Good luck. Tom V.