#41  
Old 01-20-2021, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
My Pal in college, Robert Schneeberger (RIP Bob) had a Hurst Inline Ram Rod shifter for a 4 speed in his 1964 GTO Hard Top.
It worked very well in his Drag Car. It shifted a Muncie 4 speed.

I was not aware that they even made a 3 speed version. Thanks for the new info on that Hurst Shifter.

Tom V.
Happy to share the info (and photo) with you. Must also mention Pete Serio had a hand in helping me get it all together. Thanks Mr. Serio !!

  #42  
Old 01-20-2021, 11:49 PM
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Ok guys, edumaction time (for me, that is).

It's my understanding that before the advent of the Muncie, GM used Borg-Warner tranny's (along with Ford).
The 3-speed from those days was the T89.
Is that the "Dearborn" tranny we're referring to here, or is that something else I'm unaware of?

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  #43  
Old 01-20-2021, 11:52 PM
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Wink Borg-Warner 3-speed

I learned a while back from a member here that the 3-speed manual trannys used back in the very early '60's were, in fact, Borg Warner. Not the same as the Ford/Dearborn Heavy Duty 3-speeds that were in later GM vehicles.

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Old 01-21-2021, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponchy View Post
Ok guys, edumaction time (for me, that is).

It's my understanding that before the advent of the Muncie, GM used Borg-Warner tranny's (along with Ford).
The 3-speed from those days was the T89.
Is that the "Dearborn" tranny we're referring to here, or is that something else I'm unaware of?
The Dearborn 3 speed was used in performance '66-69 Pontiac A-bodys & '67-69 F-body's.

The late 50's - early 60's BorgWarner HD 3 speed was the T-85.

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Old 01-21-2021, 01:04 AM
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Thanks guys.
Appreciate the help.

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Old 01-21-2021, 05:57 PM
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T-85 very tough, heavy too.

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Old 01-22-2021, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
Non synchronized gears being the norm seems like a foreign thing to me, only because I can't wrap my head around why non-synchronized transmissions were even a thing past the 1950's...
I wonder if that 1964 with a Dearborn was swapped in some time early in it's life.

As to Chevy mad, I don't know what to say.
My information all suggests the first year it was used was 1969, and that being dubbed a Chevrolet part, Chevrolet got a full year of divisional exclusivity in using it for the 1969 model year.
I wonder if your transmission was changed early in it's life?
I would think that swapping a three speed from a 1969 Chevelle into a 1968 Chevelle would have been a cinch.
If you can find any information that I haven't come across i am all ears - if anything, any new to me information might make finding parts easier.
Not that it's actually proof of anything, but here's a tech article from chevelles.net https://www.chevelles.net/yesterdays...cles/3munc.htm

Says that in 68 you could get the m13 3speed muncie on both the 325hp and 350hp 396ss cars.

Another point, I have no idea what the actual build date of my car was. It could have been a very late 68.

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Old 01-22-2021, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
The Dearborn 3 speed was used in performance '66-69 Pontiac A-bodys & '67-69 F-body's.

The late 50's - early 60's BorgWarner HD 3 speed was the T-85.
I have a 1968 Fbird with a 350 2 bbl, it has a 3 speed Dearborn floor shift which was an option over the base 3 speed manual transmission. The code is DB.

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  #49  
Old 01-22-2021, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevymad View Post
Not that it's actually proof of anything, ... in 68 you could get the m13 3speed muncie on both the 325hp and 350hp 396ss cars. ...
that's an RPO code.
Although there are some situations where the RPO code can mean the same transmission, it more often than not doesn't.
RPO codes are model year+division+platform specific.
As an example, in 1969 any Pontiac (AFAIK) which had the RPO M13 received the Dearborn three speed.

Although there are exceptions, typically with GM available equipment changed at the beginning with the model year - there were not rolling changes like Ford ect where depending on the time of year, different equipment could have been installed.

That is a good link, I am going to quote a couple points:
Quote:
An HD 3-speed was made by Muncie in late 1969. These were coded with the letter H on left hand side below the side cover. The casing was cast iron. The early 69 SS used the Saginaw M13.
Then there is this quote, which almost seems to contradict the prior quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure if the M13 3- speed (last used in '68) was a Muncie or Saginaw
And more...
Quote:
In '69, you could get the "MC1" HD 3-speed Muncie on the 325 and 350 hp SS-396.
As a matter of fact, if you take your time to read that link, thematically, it appears as though when the SM330 came out, Chevrolet used the RPO code MC1, not M13 for it;
It appears as though the M13 RPO was quite probably applied to a Saginaw transmission - I had understood that as a matter of pride(?), Chevrolet would not use "Dearborn" parts, and would prefer to use Saginaw, or Borg-Warner.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)

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Old 01-22-2021, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
The Dearborn 3 speed was used in performance '66-69 Pontiac A-bodys & '67-69 F-body's.
I believe it was also used in 65s, and we shouldn't forget the B-bodies.

  #51  
Old 01-22-2021, 11:54 AM
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/\ The intention I had there was to cite a single model year example of an RPO being used by Pontiac which indicated different equipment than a Chevrolet.

@chevymad:

This site seems to be a work in progress may lend to clear matters:

http://chevellestuff.net/qd/manual.htm

And here's another one:

http://macswebs.com/cddemo/66cd/etr/...on/manual.html

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)

Last edited by unruhjonny; 01-22-2021 at 12:02 PM.
  #52  
Old 01-22-2021, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 242177P View Post
I believe it was also used in 65s, and we shouldn't forget the B-bodies.
Yes, I have a Dearborn 3spd in my warehouse that came out of a '65 GTO. Presumably original in the car. It actually belongs to Pete D from this forum.

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Old 01-22-2021, 03:33 PM
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From the April '65 edition of Craftsman Service News.
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 01-22-2021, 10:52 PM
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Was just looking to see if I could find a pic of the shifter. Web search didn't turn up anything. It was a heavy flat chrome bar much like the hurst, only it had large script on the side that said Muncie. The trans worked pretty well for me, only reason I ever took it apart was to change a bearing in the back. I wouldn't be afraid of one of these 3 speeds for sure. Shifter was very well worn when I got the car, hence the locking 1st and 2nd together. Also this one had a synchro'd first. This is one car I wish I never got rid of, but it's been gone since 93. Last time I researched the trans was 20 years ago, interesting how things change.

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Old 01-23-2021, 02:27 AM
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...hmmm...Firebird Sprint, 230 HP engine, convertible....I think a HD 3-speed would fit nicely into that scenario....

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Old 01-25-2021, 09:56 PM
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Fred, back to your original question, I guess it really depends what 3 speed trans your friend has. Some are certainly durable.

My 72 LeMans GT has the true Muncie M-13 (unruh Johnny points out the side case difference), and it's a stout unit. It was sold as the "heavy duty" 3 speed in 72, and came standard with the GT option. So a step up from the Saginaw. It's a pretty heavy duty cast iron unit. If this is what your friend has, I'd jump on it for $100.

While I've never raced it, I have driven it hard on the street behind a the original 350, and now a mild 455 build. The car has 120,000 miles on it, and to my knowledge, the trans has never needed any work. It still works flawlessly. I don't know if I can hurt it.

As a bonus, the 3 speeds are more fun to drive on the street, IMO. You still get the fun of driving with the third pedal, and your gear spread is nearly identical to a Turbo 400. The Pontiac torque is quite happy with that gear spread.

Hope that helps.

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Old 01-28-2021, 03:25 PM
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There were two Dearborns, at least in 1967, a "DA" and a "DB." The DA is described as the "standard Pontiac 3-speed" whereas the "DB" is described as the "heavy duty Tempest 3-speed." It looks like the DA has a longer output shaft and housing, so it won't fit in a Tempest/Lemans/GTO. Ratios were 2.44, 1.66, & 1.00 w/ 2.33 reverse.

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Old 01-28-2021, 03:40 PM
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The longer output shaft would likely be for B bodies. The B body Muncie 4 speeds were also longer than the A body. The D/A designation is for A bodies and the D/B is for B bodies, but that is purely conjecture. I have no documentation, and other than direct experience with both bodies with 4 speeds, that is the obvious difference is the length of the output shaft.

Maybe someone has actual documentation to confirm this?

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Old 01-28-2021, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DogMeister View Post
There were two Dearborns, at least in 1967, a "DA" and a "DB." The DA is described as the "standard Pontiac 3-speed" whereas the "DB" is described as the "heavy duty Tempest 3-speed." It looks like the DA has a longer output shaft and housing, so it won't fit in a Tempest/Lemans/GTO. Ratios were 2.44, 1.66, & 1.00 w/ 2.33 reverse.


Longshaft version is for B-bodies (standard Pontiac)

Short shaft is for A (and F) bodies (HD Tempest 3 std)

I may be mistaken, but I believe the only difference is the tail shaft/housing with the gearbox itself being essentially identical.

  #60  
Old 01-29-2021, 04:21 PM
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Are the gear ratios the same for both trannies?

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