[Buford T. JuSStice]

Has anybody tried one of the Port Fuel Injection set ups by Edelbrock on their old Poncho V8 yet?

I'm very curious to see what kind of results you can get with that kind of air/fuel set up.

[JLMounce]

I know Don Johnston used a Pro Flow 4 setup on one of the RAV engines he built. Perhaps he'll see this thread and discuss his findings. I know he had to up-size the injectors and I believe also have the basic programming reflashed to support an LS firing order.

Funny this pops up, as I just got off the phone with Edelbrock asking some questions about the setup. The big thing that has kept me from jumping on this, is the kit's rated maximum power of 550hp with 35 lb injectors. For a lot of people that's likely plenty and they even sell a kit for about $100 less if you are near stock or only making about 400hp.

The system can easily made to support much higher power levels with proper injectors and fuel system/pump. What Edelbrock indicated to me is that They can only ship the kit as shown either through their vendors or on their site. So if you call up Edelbrock direct and order the kit, what they'll allow you to do is open it up, take the never used injectors from the kit and send them back. They will then send you the injectors sized to your application and charge you the difference between what they are receiving back and what the larger injectors would be.

The problem there is you're going to have shipping costs as well vs buying from somebody like Summit who is going to give you free shipping.

If you needed a Victor intake instead of the torker ii, my guess is they would probably entertain that same deal on the intake. It's a bit of a pain, but considering this is probably the best entry level MPFI/Spark control system out there, it may not be too bad to handle. Especially seeing that they've dropped the prices on these kits and also currently have a $100.00 rebate during the month of august.

[Buford T. JuSStice]

Thanks for the response! I would assume most guys who do get these are putting them on stroked, and bored 455's which would be why they need bigger injectors. My plan was to take a 400 block and turn it into a 428 with a rotating assembly, so injectors for a 455 would likely be enough.

I'm actually more curious about how an engine with those injectors behaves on the street. I would assume that the biggest benefit to it would be driveability, ease of use, and maybe slightly better fuel economy. It would also probably have better throttle response, but I doubt it would result in a big a power increase.

[JLMounce]

The benefits of EFI are typically every day drivability stuff, ease of maintenance after setup etc. A properly tuned EFI isn't going to make any more power at wide open throttle than a properly sized and setup carburetor.

Now if your carb is the wrong size, isn't tuned for the application etc. then you may expect to see some gains.

You still need to know how to find out what the engine likes and doesn't like though. Or have a tuner do it. While I'm a big fan of these systems, I had the "self learning" marketing that all the companies use. It doesn't learn what your engine wants or even needs. It only learns how to do what you tell it to do. So if the tuner (you or anybody else) is feeding it parameters that aren't healthy for the engine, you can still end up with a pretty terrible running engine.

These systems also require a well sorted car to begin with. If you've got exhaust leaks, wiring issues, low performing alternators, or don't have the time or know how to properly install them, these systems can in a lot of ways make your driving experience worse than what it was with a carb, that simply doesn't care about any of that.

[Buford T. JuSStice]

That sounds perfect for me. I recently built my Buick wagon with a 383 Blueprint crate engine, and I put a Q-Jet carburetor on it - and I love it so far - but I was never really able to learn from anybody how to "Properly" tune a carburetor so I had to teach myself how to do it with books, and reading up on it online. Depending who you ask, everybody has a different way of doing it, and you really can't mix and match these ways otherwise you're going to end up with a mess. But long story short, I'm pretty sure my idle is too high, idle mixture is off, and I think the choke is just a bit off... timing is spot on, and my TV cable seems to be okay though. But those things would at least be easier with a computerized system.

Plus, it's getting harder to find guys who know how to set carburetors up. When I went to automotive school, we didn't even touch carburetors except to mention them as antiquated technology, and guys who know how to work on them are getting harder to find as they retire from the industry. I can learn how to do it, but I'd rather spend more time on the road enjoying the fruits of my labor rather than fiddling around with it in the garage.

For the next engine I build, I just want it to have the reliability and ease of use that the LT1 in my Caprice has, and that has sequential port fuel injection. Granted... it's an LT1 so it has it's quirks and weaknesses, but overall it has easily been the most forgiving, easy to work on engine I've ever owned and that's even taking the cursed Optispark into account! *knock on wood*

[Marv]

I haven't experienced their new Pro-Flo port injection but I have not been impressed with any of the "bolt on" or "self learning" EFI set-ups. I find the parameters used for the "self-learning" are way too wide and any decent proper stand-alone computer with properly sized port injectors will deliver a far, far superior ownership experience. Granted, setting up a stand-alone computer and injection system it isn't as simple as bolting a carb or one of those systems on but I'm astounded by the effort many people put into their engine combo, cam choice, or converter size only to take the easy way out when it comes to controlling the spark and fuel delivery.

I've written about setting my mild 389 up for port injection on my blog www.bargegarage.com though i haven't updated it since I've changed from 2x4s back to a single 4bbl throttle body on a single-plane intake.

I've tried to use as many OEM sensors on my set-up, with GM LS type coolant, intake air temp, and throttle position sensors used as they're easy for me to source down here in Australia. I had to change to a Bosch 2-wire idle air control valve as my Haltech 950 Elite ECU won't run the GM stepper motor-style IAC but that isn't a huge drama. I also use stock LS1 coilpacks, with a BOP Engineering plug in place of the distributor.

I had a custom fuel tank made as there aren't off-the-shelf EFI tanks available for '64 Bonnevilles (and shipping alone would have killed me) and I use a factory Pontiac G8 GXP/5th Gen Camaro MRA fuel pump assembly. This means I run a single -6 fuel line to the car. I also use stock LS3 injectors as they have plenty of headroom for my engine combo. I run a stock GM-style fuel filter and flex fuel sensor in case I want to put my car on E85 at any time.

My Haltech came with a full wiring loom and it took next to no time to actually wire it up, though I spent plenty of time running wires and sorting out how to make it neat. I also added extra Deutsch wiring connectors to make it easier to work on the car, so I can remove individual looms if required, plus I have gone through and added half a dozen 1-gauge ground wires to the chassis as I see heaps of cars with weird problems solved by improving grounds.

I've had problems getting mine fired up as I think my crank trigger sensor is no good. I'm using a generic Holley 60-2 trigger wheel mounted to my balancer, so I have sequential injection with wasted spark firing. I've not been able to get a timing light to work on my car so far, so while I can spin the engine over I can't get it timed properly.

The way I have done it isn't the cheapest or easiest way to go, but once it's running it should be reliable and not have any issues with hot/cold starting or sourcing replacement parts.

[Bandit400]

A buddy of mine just installed it on his 66 LeMans. 400 with a RAIV cam. He loves it. Starts and drives like a new car.

[64speed]

The only reason I didn’t use it is because I already had the sniper setup when it became available and I am afraid I am making closer to 575/580 than 550 HP

[joes455]

Bandit400 is the only (indirectly ) came close to answer op question.I would also like to know if anyone has any experiance with the pro flow 4

[Marv]

Originally Posted by joes455

Bandit400 is the only (indirectly ) came close to answer op question.I would also like to know if anyone has any experiance with the pro flow 4

The discussion broadened into discussing port injection versus the throttle body-mounted units. The Pro Flow 4 unit is still quite new so it's unlikely too many people will have done enough miles in enough situations to give a worthwhile review... unless you want to base your purchase off third-party references covered in single-sentence posts?

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Marv

My Haltech came with a full wiring loom and it took next to no time to actually wire it up, though I spent plenty of time running wires and sorting out how to make it neat. I also added extra Deutsch wiring connectors to make it easier to work on the car, so I can remove individual looms if required, plus I have gone through and added half a dozen 1-gauge ground wires to the chassis as I see heaps of cars with weird problems solved by improving grounds.
.

Yes, the 'universal' harnesses have to take into account a number of factors, and in most cases, you have a blob of wires hanging all over the place. Not very good for a 'professional' installation look.

I did as you, removed all unused wires, shortened wires for my install, made sub-harnesses to make servicing easier/modular, using a bunch of GT-150, Delphi 150 series, and a number of others. When you 1st look at the engine, you see very little of the harness, which is exactly what I wanted.

The Pro-Flo has been out a while actually, almost as long as other TBI bolt-on systems. It's been through a number of variations & improvements, and the ECU (since 2007) is made by EFI Technologies, which is a US based company, with a ton of background working in indy car circles. It's quality stuff. It used to be made by Marren, also a quality manufacturer.

True the TBI self-learning and customization is limited, but it was meant to be a bolt-on, entry-level system. A few of them allow additional, more granular config via a laptop, but you have to realize, it's a TBI setup, and it's going to have limitations. But that doesn't mean it can't be made to work, and work pretty well.

Shame most have a 'gap' between the 600-700hp range, which is kind of where many builds are currently falling. You can overcome that with more psi, but you still run into duty cycle issues which can get sloppy. For anything but a high effort performance build, they are still adequate.

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[lamans71]

*Old thread alert*
I am bringing this thread back up because I am considering installing this system and want to see if there are any additional real world experiences with this system. The last reply is a year and a half old so I'm hoping that somebody has installed this system and put some miles on it by now.

Part two of my inquiry is if there are any other systems like this in the marketplace that I should be considering as well. My car is a 71 LeMans with a 400 (not original) 4 speed, I bought the car a few years back so I don't know what is in the motor other than a slightly loppy cam. I'm not looking for super high HP but a better driving experience as the current single plane manifold and Edelbrock carb is horrible under 2K RPMS which makes it a pia to drive in traffic.

[Scarebird]

This is from my build:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&postcount=48

I pressure tested it yesterday - nice and quiet.

[Lee]

An old friend installed the ProFlo on his 455 a couple years ago, and has had no complaints.

Honestly, I'd wait until later this year to buy one. Edelbrock , Comp Cams, and FAST are all now "in the same family" and I suspect Edelbrock's EFI stuff will be merged with FAST's in the near future. FAST's head efi guy has been promoted to be the head of Edelbrock's supercharger department.

I have the FAST XFI Sportsman system on my 455. This is sort of like the EZ 2.0, but with an improved ECU that allows FULL lap-top tuning. You can program it to "self learn", but you can actually control the learning parameters. The XFI Sportsman BT is a killer deal - same as the non-BT system, but with a 2-bar MAP and costs several hundred $ less.

Having the XFI Sportsman ECU on the ProFlo intake/tb would be a nice set up.

[HWYSTR455]

Well, there's no real 'Pro-Flo intake', the intake is just an Edelbrock EFI intake with rails. You can use any throttle body, ECU, etc.

The FAST Sportsman ECU is nice, and direct competition to Holley's Terminator X series. The Terminator X has a slight price advantage, at the moment:

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-936

The Terminator X Max has e-trans control built in. As of right now, FAST requires a separate controller, which limits engine control events as it relates to the trans.

I haven't looked at the C-COMP software for a while, but think it's time it gets an update. With the FAST buyout, I suspect there are going to step up their' game and directly compete with Holley. As of right now though, the Terminator X has more features.

EDIT: I suspect Holley is going to depreciate the HP & Dominator ECUs in favor of the Terminator series.

.

[lamans71]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

This is from my build:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&postcount=48

I pressure tested it yesterday - nice and quiet.

Thanks Scarebird, I did read your thread yesterday that is an awesome build and the type of thing I would like to do someday with my car.

Originally Posted by Lee

An old friend installed the ProFlo on his 455 a couple years ago, and has had no complaints.

Honestly, I'd wait until later this year to buy one. Edelbrock , Comp Cams, and FAST are all now "in the same family" and I suspect Edelbrock's EFI stuff will be merged with FAST's in the near future. FAST's head efi guy has been promoted to be the head of Edelbrock's supercharger department.

I have the FAST XFI Sportsman system on my 455. This is sort of like the EZ 2.0, but with an improved ECU that allows FULL lap-top tuning. You can program it to "self learn", but you can actually control the learning parameters. The XFI Sportsman BT is a killer deal - same as the non-BT system, but with a 2-bar MAP and costs several hundred $ less.

Having the XFI Sportsman ECU on the ProFlo intake/tb would be a nice set up.

Awesome thanks for the info that recent combination of those entities, I am in no rush as this has been on the back burner for awhile now. I'll keep an eye on how all this comes together before I make a choice.

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Well, there's no real 'Pro-Flo intake', the intake is just an Edelbrock EFI intake with rails. You can use any throttle body, ECU, etc.

The FAST Sportsman ECU is nice, and direct competition to Holley's Terminator X series. The Terminator X has a slight price advantage, at the moment:

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/550-936

The Terminator X Max has e-trans control built in. As of right now, FAST requires a separate controller, which limits engine control events as it relates to the trans.

I haven't looked at the C-COMP software for a while, but think it's time it gets an update. With the FAST buyout, I suspect there are going to step up their' game and directly compete with Holley. As of right now though, the Terminator X has more features.

EDIT: I suspect Holley is going to depreciate the HP & Dominator ECUs in favor of the Terminator series.

.

Excellent info thanks for the reply.

[HWYSTR455]

If you're ok with a TBi type system, the Sniper with HyperSpark is a pretty tough setup to beat, especially from a simplistic & price standpoint.


.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If you're ok with a TBi type system, the Sniper with HyperSpark is a pretty tough setup to beat, especially from a simplistic & price standpoint.


.

My father and I both bought one. Pretty happy with both. It's self tuning and that can also be adjusted, dummied down or completely turned off, and fully tunable with laptop. In fact I recommend the lap top tuning because the self tuning only gets you so far. Great system for the money and keeps a stock appearance. Holley now sells the Sniper Stealth with the Terminator computer system with more functions, including transmission control.

I like the port injection systems too, and I'd certainly go that route if it was a build that I wasn't worried about appearances.

[lamans71]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If you're ok with a TBi type system, the Sniper with HyperSpark is a pretty tough setup to beat, especially from a simplistic & price standpoint.

.

Thanks for pointing that out, that may indeed be the way to go as it is a much more budget friendly option. I also like that it is a very simple swap and retains a stock like appearance. Too bad that they do not have any refurbished kits currently, that is super budget friendly.

Originally Posted by Formulajones

My father and I both bought one. Pretty happy with both. It's self tuning and that can also be adjusted, dummied down or completely turned off, and fully tunable with laptop. In fact I recommend the lap top tuning because the self tuning only gets you so far. Great system for the money and keeps a stock appearance. Holley now sells the Sniper Stealth with the Terminator computer system with more functions, including transmission control.

I like the port injection systems too, and I'd certainly go that route if it was a build that I wasn't worried about appearances.

Thanks for your real word experience, it helps a lot to know that the system worked well in actual use not just in the company testing. A couple of questions for you; one as I read the Holly site on this I did not see that the Sniper system was able to use a laptop. That is advertised as an option when combined with the Terminator, do you remember which model you and your father bought? And second did you also buy the Hyperspark distributor?

[Formulajones]

We use the Sniper Stealth units. They all are tunable on a laptop as far as I know, you just need to buy the USB cable to adapt the Sniper harness to the laptop, which is not supplied in the kit, (sold separately)

From there it's just as simple as downloading the Holley software (free) plug the laptop in and you have much more precise tuning ability of everything an EFI offers, tuning on the fly, live data logging, overlays, diagnostics etc....

We didn't buy the dual sinc distributors because both cars were already running MSD ignition systems with billet distributors, so it's just as simple as locking out the distributor, hook up the wires and let the EFI control it.