[Steve C.]

Posted within another thread by charlie66 when he lost only one solid roller lifter.....

"I just had the same thing happen. 1 went bad the rest were good. Mine had around 5000 K on them as well. Crower told me to stay with needle when i asked about bushed . 295lbs on the seat though."


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[slowbird]

Even high spring pressure race engines i wouldn't run a bushed lifter. Zero advantage to them imo with a few downsides to them. Just my opinion

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Posted within another thread by charlie66 when he lost only one solid roller lifter.....

"I just had the same thing happen. 1 went bad the rest were good. Mine had around 5000 K on them as well. Crower told me to stay with needle when i asked about bushed . 295lbs on the seat though."


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Dayum!!

[Cliff R]

Steve, we already talked about your issues some, I was putting the info up more for the readers venturing into this area more than anything else.

Common sense should also play into this topic. IF you are running springs with the equivalent pressure of having two grown fat guys standing on your pushrods and they are cycling many times per second for 5000 miles and you ground up a lifter and lobe, flat or roller cam, that really should come to much of a surprise for the user.....IMHO.

Look at what the factory has done now since the late 1980's with roller cams. I haven't checked but I'm betting they aren't running much seat or open pressure and for sure with bee-hive set-ups and other things done to lighten up the parts involved in this deal. I'm sure they are also looking very closely at the intensity of the lobe/lift rates and looking for more off seat time in milliseconds vs a butt-ton of valve lift (movement). In any case it's rare to hear about lifter issues, except for the occasional failure with GM LS engines directly related to using the lifters to cancel out cylinder with their piss-poorly designed "fuel management" systems that drops pressure to the lifters and ceases normal function in the V-4 mode.

I've used tuners to shut off fuel management on the later model LS engines and fuel economy IMPROVES over having it in place. Not meaning to start any debates for sure in that area but I do have a LOT of experience with the later model stuff, and have done a lot of diesel tuning and modifications as well to improve both power and engine efficiency over factory set-ups.

With our Pontiac V-8's, and the retrofit stuff, size, weight and design of the parts needed to do this isn't for the better.....IMHO

[Steve C.]

Thanks Cliff, I understand and agree with you. I was elaborating a bit here concerning my specific issues.

Crower Can Rebuilt Your Roller Lifters

https://www.crower.com/rebuilt-your-roller-lifters

The intake lobe used on my new cam is the same as the old UltraDyne 288R that Harold designed in 1980. I worked with Tim at Bullet Racing Cams and he said years ago they used to run it with a typical Small Block Chevy valvetrain mass with around 190 lbs seat pressure, in a Big Block Chevy at around 220 pounds if memory serves me right. Tim suggested in a Pontiac at the 190 lbs. But keep in mind these numbers were from 30+ years ago.

I choose a spring rated 220 lbs at 1.900, knowing it will lose pressure after run in. That and my intake valves are a larger 2.150" diameter and with a longer stem length for that 1.900" installed height. I believe when in doubt, run slightly more seat pressure... not less.

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I've gotten to the point that if I want a solid cam, it's a solid flat tappet. No rollers to worry about and they run for 100,000 miles. If I'm dead set on a roller, I just go hydraulic, give up a little HP with the juice lifters and move on to other things.

My thoughts too.

Keep the solid rollers on the track.

[Steve C.]

"Yup, monitor lash, look closer at lifters if you see a 'decay' of adjustment. Considering the length of time, checking seat psi is a good idea too. I've run a number of SRs on the street without issues. The one engine went 225,000 miles."

HWYSTR455


"As long as you go with good roller lifters, with pressure-fed oiling to the needle bearings, there's no reason a cam that's mild enough to run those low spring pressures, can't last 100,000 miles."

Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC


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[JSPONT]

You guys are scaring me. I bought my cam used, it is tame but I run a turbo so with boost spring pressures need to be higher. I have pin oiling bearing lifters. about 15 k on the them, 580 lift cam. 250 seat 650 open, no issues, I adjust them once a season and most of the time, they are good.
I do not know if it helps or hurts, but on the street, I run solid rollers with a tighter lash than on the cam card.

[Skip Fix]

Cliff I picked up a set of SBC Fast Burns supposedly with just some dyno time to build a new 383 for my old 97 Vortec truck. The factory springs on it(not the new LS springs) were only 90 seat! So pretty darned low.

[Steve C.]

"...were only 90 seat! So pretty darned low."

Eludes to what Paul Carter stated once on the subject regarding OEM applications....

"They do it with mild lobes, and they only run about 80-90 lbs. of seat pressure, and just over 200 lbs. open. That's how they get away with it. Performance cams will not run very long with these spring pressures."

And from one article regarding OEM using roller lifters... "With continuing improvements in metallurgy and engine design, there was a noticeable shift from one style to another in the OEM ranks a decade ago, say engine parts experts. According to Federal-Mogul performance products manager, Barry Rabotnick, “In the ’90s there was a large scale evolutionary move from flat tappet to hydraulic roller lifters. That’s because the same principles that govern racing engine philosophy play out to street engines – if only somewhat. Friction equals horsepower and it also equals gas mileage.”*

As aready suggested here to further combat roller lifter problems on the street today, newer springs have been designed to run with much lower pressures, yet can still control the valves. That leads to less loading on the lifters and translates to longer life.


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[Cliff R]

I checked the lift on a factory roller lifter camshaft once we were re-installing in a Vortec 350 engine and it measured something like .360"/.390" lift with 1.5 rockers! The cam lobes looked square like it lifted the valves pretty quickly to full lift and held them there nearly forever.

Low lift, mild ramps and not much spring pressure helps them go 1/4 of a million miles w/o issues. The cam mentioned above was from a late 80's early Vortec 350 in a vehicle with close to 260,000 miles on it. Even the wimpy little 5/8" wide timing set was still getting it done but it did have quite a bit of slack in the chain.

Running 2 to 3 times more spring pressure, heavier components, uicker ramps/aggressive lobe profiles, and a LOT more lift one shouldn't expect to go all that far with these things without lifter issues....IMHO.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Even high spring pressure race engines i wouldn't run a bushed lifter. Zero advantage to them imo with a few downsides to them. Just my opinion

The advantage is the load carrying capability of a solid bushing vs a needle bearing. But they have disadvantages as mentioned as well. I honestly feel it's a pick your poison toss up at this point. Jesel officially said for years, needle bearings were superior if not using cheap Chinese crap and that's all they sold. Now they sell bushing style lifters as well. They are a well respected company as is Crower and Isky. I like the superior oiling of a needle bearing in a light to medium loaded condition. In severe loaded condition, 450-500 lb. on the seat and 1100 lbs. open, we had better luck with the bushing style lifters. But we were not putting thousands of miles of street driving on them. My current street build is going to be solid flat tappet for some of these reasons. Along with the high cost of a roller lifter, when it fails, blown up needles or axles or rollers can do allot of damage. If a flat tappet flattens out, you generally get some warning at least.

[Steve C.]

"Jesel feels like roller bearing lifters have advantages over bushed lifters. It’s hotly debated. “The myth that needs to be debunked is that bushed roller lifters are superior to needle bearing lifters,” said Jesel’s Remesi.
“Jesel has spent a lot of time and money in the development of the needles, roller, and the axle. If we felt the bushing roller was better we would have pursued it, but in most applications, where the loads and speeds are extremely high, the Jesel stance is the needle-bearing roller is a must." "Unlike a rod or main bearing, there is not enough oil pressure available to a lifter roller to sustain an oil film needed between an axle and bushing to keep it from galling or wearing.”

This is just from the first paragraph, more pertinent information included in the sidebar "Bushings Vs. Needle Bearings", including comments from Comp Cams here:

https://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-s...rs-technology/

( Information provided in this post does not represent any endorsement. And unless specified it is not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only )


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[slowbird]

I run 460lbs on seat with Jesel needle bearing. Zero issues in the 4 yrs they were in service.
A couple dyno pulls with Crower bushed lifters and they came out and converted back to needle bearings

[mgarblik]

Current Jesel info from their web site: https://www.jesel.com/tie-bar-roller-lifters
Talking to Rob Remesi at PRI in 2019, he said other "competitors" were eating into their market and aggressively pushing the bushing style lifters. Jesel reluctantly began offering them to retain and grow their business. They clearly favor the needle bearing style however. In the video he stresses that ALL THE COMPONENTS are manufactured IN HOUSE at their plant in NJ. That includes the needle bearings, the heart of a lifter or rocker arm.

[Steve C.]

Interesting discussion about how Jesel has developed methods of shaping the rollers to ensure a longer service life....

Quick Tech: The Differences Between Bushed- and Needle-Roller Lifters
2019

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/quic...oller-lifters/


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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"Yup, monitor lash, look closer at lifters if you see a 'decay' of adjustment. Considering the length of time, checking seat psi is a good idea too. I've run a number of SRs on the street without issues. The one engine went 225,000 miles."

HWYSTR455


"As long as you go with good roller lifters, with pressure-fed oiling to the needle bearings, there's no reason a cam that's mild enough to run those low spring pressures, can't last 100,000 miles."

Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs
Denver, NC


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And if I remember right when Highway was talking about that, he was running very mild spring pressures......like hydraulic roller type spring pressures, which is why he got mileage out of it. So it had to be a very mild solid roller lobe profile.

[Steve C.]

Mike Jones response above was regarding a 'street solid roller' cam with a proposed 170 seat and 420 open pressures.

That certainly does not mean a higher pressure would not be workable. I have a personal friend that has put on thousands of street miles and a few track outings at around 200 lbs seat pressure. Others more.

Reminds me of the silly comment a fellow named Jerry Coffee used to say... you need "BONE CRUSHING" spring pressure on a solid roller cam ! His mentality was from the dark ages !


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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

In Mike Jones response above it was regarding a 'street solid roller' cam with 170 seat and 420 open pressures.


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Yeah that's what I figured, that's hydraulic roller territory so it's no surprise a solid roller would live with those pressures. So it's likely a very mild solid roller lobe profile with gentle closing rates.

That's why I said when you get into taming the camshaft down to the point of making the solid roller live and running these hydraulic roller spring pressures, I'd just go with a hydraulic roller at that point and forget about it.

What I'd like to know is exactly what you're doing Steve, trying to keep the solid roller profile somewhat aggressive to make some HP, playing with the lobe profiles and still running 220 lbs. springs and see how the longevity is on the street long term. Where is the breaking point? We already know from past experience 240 lbs or more just kills the rollers after several thousand miles. So I'm interested in how this all works out for you.

[slowbird]

If people paid more attention to valvetrain weight, it'd really help things to live also. Ti valve, small springs, ti or tool steel retainers all can get a lot of weight out and then you can back off pressures a fair amount and still have a happy valvetrain. I know people like to be cheap but sometimes you need to suck it up and spend a little.