#61  
Old 11-11-2020, 08:25 PM
punkin punkin is offline
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Getting closer. Assembly finished. I'm in line at the dyno. Hopefully this week or early next
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Old 11-11-2020, 09:13 PM
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Glad to hear the update. Let us know how the dyno goes

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Old 11-11-2020, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkin View Post
Getting closer. Assembly finished. I'm in line at the dyno. Hopefully this week or early next
Nice!!!

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71 GTO, 463, KRE 295 cfm heads ported by SD Performance, RPM intake, Qjet, Dougs Headers, Comp cams HR 246/252 ...11 to 1 , 3.55 cogs, 3985lbs.....day two- 11.05 at 122mph ....1.59 60', 7.03 1/8 mile
  #64  
Old 11-11-2020, 11:15 PM
dmac dmac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
As an example and for interest here, this is very nice street build that made 650 hp with 535 cubic inches using 345 cfm Edelbrock heads with 2.250 intake valves. The cam here was a relatively mild 248 degree hydraulic roller... knowing that going to a solid roller cam you will need to add additional duration.

As in the case of this build in all likelihood the height of your intake ports on the proposed 340 cfm cylinder heads will require modifications to the Torker II intake manifold as done here. It will need TIG-welding for raised port tops in the intake, machined flat and port-matched. Nothing unusual.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...-alloy-indian/
.
650-700 hp at above 6500 rpm is one thing, but poster asked for 650-700 at 6000 rpm. Does that combo you listed do that? To me, building for 6000 rpm is an entirely different level that 7000 rpm. Asking for street driveability and pump gas seems to be asking a lot. . On the street, it is going to see a LOT of 2000 rpm to 3000rpm driving. This sounds like a job for a computer controlled engine?!?!?!
I enjoyed driving high compression 13:1 on the street when premium was 110 octane and octane booster was loaded with lead and really worked.

Is there a formula for how many cubic inches you need to get 700hp with 10.5:1 cr at 6000 rpm? Seems like that is the starting point, and you need to work backwards from there. Maybe a turbo, or blower????? May not even need as many cubic inches!!!!



.[/QUOTE]

  #65  
Old 11-11-2020, 11:18 PM
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Now I see a lot newer posts!!!!!

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Old 11-21-2020, 11:51 AM
punkin punkin is offline
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Super stoked...I had a chance to stop by the shop the other day as they're getting it ready for me to pick up. They still had it on the dyno and ran it up for me and indicated that they were still tinkering with the EFI. I can't remember the exact number but hit/exceeded my numbers. The HP was a bit over 650 and the torque was something like 709 at 4600 rpm (if I recall correctly). What a glorious sound. A nice smooth rumble at idle but at WOT holy cow! I couldn't be more pleased. This is going to live all day long on the highway and around town, no more over-heating with high compression cranky behaviour. Can't wait to get this put in the car. I realized after I walked out of the shop and into my truck that I still had a stupid ear to ear grin on my face :-)

Learned a bunch from the people here in the forums. A lot of good advice. I've got a really nice livable combination of parts to put back in the car. Thanks all.

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1968 Firebird
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  #67  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:36 PM
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gorgeous engine, where did you get the valve covers?

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  #68  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkin View Post
Super stoked...I had a chance to stop by the shop the other day as they're getting it ready for me to pick up. They still had it on the dyno and ran it up for me and indicated that they were still tinkering with the EFI. I can't remember the exact number but hit/exceeded my numbers. The HP was a bit over 650 and the torque was something like 709 at 4600 rpm (if I recall correctly). What a glorious sound. A nice smooth rumble at idle but at WOT holy cow! I couldn't be more pleased. This is going to live all day long on the highway and around town, no more over-heating with high compression cranky behaviour. Can't wait to get this put in the car. I realized after I walked out of the shop and into my truck that I still had a stupid ear to ear grin on my face :-)

Learned a bunch from the people here in the forums. A lot of good advice. I've got a really nice livable combination of parts to put back in the car. Thanks all.

What was the final combo?


Great power - torque is crazy.

  #69  
Old 11-21-2020, 12:59 PM
462gto 462gto is offline
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What's the name of the shop that did the build?

  #70  
Old 11-21-2020, 06:37 PM
younggto younggto is online now
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Punkin, just curious on why head bolts instead of studs with an aluminum block; I assume the head bolts are longer than those used with a cast iron block. Looks great tho!

  #71  
Old 11-21-2020, 07:13 PM
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Wow- way cool. At whatRPM did it hit high HP?

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  #72  
Old 11-21-2020, 07:25 PM
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Fantastic job !! I too am interested in the valve covers. Where, how much ?

  #73  
Old 11-21-2020, 07:26 PM
punkin punkin is offline
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I don't have all the nitty-gritty details that I'm sure some of you would like but I did give a lot of trust to the shop. I told them what I was after, they asked me some questions on things like how to I plan to run the car, is it set up for race or street, transmission, rear etc.. I told them I wanted a really strong street motor that's not going to be grumpy and needed to be tuned for the street then race gas and tuned again for the track. I wanted to drive to the coast for a summer trip and not have to worry when I got to sea level.

I tell ya, I still get a grin when I recall them hitting the start button on a cold start. Instant on...no cranky cranking. I wasn't really not sold on the idea of EFI. I was actually leaning towards a dominator but then I remembered the days at the track, spilling fuel on the intake, dropping jets in the pits, try this-n-that with timing, but I'm a convert now. Maybe not the ideal for drawing out max WOT power but that's not the mission here. I had to keep reminding myself of that.

Ia2 Aluminum Block
522 CID
Molnar Rods
Diamond Pistons
E-heads (340 Butler)
10.8:1 compression
ARP head bolts
Balancer (SFI)
Flexplate (SFI)
Manley Springs
Comp Cams Hydraulic Cam (248/254 @ .050, 618/638 lift 112+4 LSA)
Comp Cams Rocker and Girdle
Comp Cams Roller Lifters
Milodon Pan and windage tray
Holley Sniper XFlow
Holley Hyper Spark Distributor
11 Bolt timing cover
Valve Covers (Williamsperformance.com)
Northwind intake ported and matched with heads
Meziere water pump
Power Master Starter
ATI Flexplate
Melling Oil Pump
Short oil pump housing by KRE
Driven Oil and Filter
NGK Plugs
New set of plug wires.

There's a question about the head bolts, honestly, I don't know why they chose them over studs. As the builder indicated to me this motor is just loafing along. The cam starts to poop out about 6000 rpm. He did a couple pulls to 6K which sounded like music. I presume because of where I'm planning to turn the RPMs and compression, it may not need it...I don't know. If you think this is a concern I could ask though.

I'm headed back down into town next week to pick it up. I should have a bit more info. The guys at MadCap Racing (I hope it's ok to post the name of the business) in Denver are a great bunch. As I was leaving the shop I saw a couple old Pontiacs in there in line waiting their turn for a refresh.

Once again to everyone here. I had been lurking then started asking questions and having learned from previous mistakes, don't build a Pontiac like a Chevy. Take advantage of that long lever for street driving. 4L80e is next and out on the highway for some cool smooth cruising.

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IAIIa 522
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  #74  
Old 11-21-2020, 10:10 PM
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ponjohn ponjohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by punkin View Post
I don't have all the nitty-gritty details that I'm sure some of you would like but I did give a lot of trust to the shop. I told them what I was after, they asked me some questions on things like how to I plan to run the car, is it set up for race or street, transmission, rear etc.. I told them I wanted a really strong street motor that's not going to be grumpy and needed to be tuned for the street then race gas and tuned again for the track. I wanted to drive to the coast for a summer trip and not have to worry when I got to sea level.

I tell ya, I still get a grin when I recall them hitting the start button on a cold start. Instant on...no cranky cranking. I wasn't really not sold on the idea of EFI. I was actually leaning towards a dominator but then I remembered the days at the track, spilling fuel on the intake, dropping jets in the pits, try this-n-that with timing, but I'm a convert now. Maybe not the ideal for drawing out max WOT power but that's not the mission here. I had to keep reminding myself of that.

Ia2 Aluminum Block
522 CID
Molnar Rods
Diamond Pistons
E-heads (340 Butler)
10.8:1 compression
ARP head bolts
Balancer (SFI)
Flexplate (SFI)
Manley Springs
Comp Cams Hydraulic Cam (248/254 @ .050, 618/638 lift 112+4 LSA)
Comp Cams Rocker and Girdle
Comp Cams Roller Lifters
Milodon Pan and windage tray
Holley Sniper XFlow
Holley Hyper Spark Distributor
11 Bolt timing cover
Valve Covers (Williamsperformance.com)
Northwind intake ported and matched with heads
Meziere water pump
Power Master Starter
ATI Flexplate
Melling Oil Pump
Short oil pump housing by KRE
Driven Oil and Filter
NGK Plugs
New set of plug wires.

There's a question about the head bolts, honestly, I don't know why they chose them over studs. As the builder indicated to me this motor is just loafing along. The cam starts to poop out about 6000 rpm. He did a couple pulls to 6K which sounded like music. I presume because of where I'm planning to turn the RPMs and compression, it may not need it...I don't know. If you think this is a concern I could ask though.

I'm headed back down into town next week to pick it up. I should have a bit more info. The guys at MadCap Racing (I hope it's ok to post the name of the business) in Denver are a great bunch. As I was leaving the shop I saw a couple old Pontiacs in there in line waiting their turn for a refresh.

Once again to everyone here. I had been lurking then started asking questions and having learned from previous mistakes, don't build a Pontiac like a Chevy. Take advantage of that long lever for street driving. 4L80e is next and out on the highway for some cool smooth cruising.

I'd be curious if the numbers are corrected for sea level.


At any rate - great power.

  #75  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:30 AM
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TCSGTO TCSGTO is offline
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Great numbers! Couple of questions on the FI system. How much tinkering did i they do to the Xflow to get it to fire cold? Did they manually tune on it or let it self learn? What afr did it end up with at WOT?

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68 GTO,3860#
Stock Original 400/M-20 Muncie,3.55s
13.86 @ 100
Old combo:
462 10.75 CR,,SD 330CFM Round Port E's,Old Faithful cam,Jim Hand Continental,3.42's.
1968 Pontiac GTO : 11.114 @ 120.130 MPH

New combo:
517 MR-1,10.8 CR,SD 350CFM E's,QFT 950/Northwind,246/252 HR,9.5 4000 stall,3.42's
636HP/654TQ

1968 Pontiac GTO : 10.706 @ 124.440 MPH
  #76  
Old 11-22-2020, 09:27 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is online now
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"I'm headed back down into town next week to pick it up. I should have a bit more info."

While there pick up a copy of the dyno sheet !


.

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  #77  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:22 AM
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OCMDGTO OCMDGTO is offline
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Great build congrats!

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69 GTO 467, 850 Holley, T2, Edelbrock Dport 310cfm w Ram Air manifolds, HFT 245/251D .561/.594L, T400, 9" w 3.50s 3905lbs 11.73@ 114, 1.61/ 60'
  #78  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:35 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is online now
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I'm confused as to the final cubic inches involved.... some posts suggest 522 and others 535. What is the stroke and bore ?

If you bring back one or more copies of a dyno sheet it will indicate the peak torque rpm and peak power rpm, and with the TQ/HP numbers to report.

The 535 combination I linked here in my post #10 with the 'same' cam, similar cylinder heads and a Torker II intake with 850 cfm carb made peak torque at 4400 rpm and peak power at a low 5400 rpm. A 1000 rpm spread.
With a Victor intake and 1,150-cfm Dominator carburetor it pushed the peak power to a higher 5800 rpm. A 1400 rpm spread.

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #79  
Old 11-22-2020, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
I'm confused as to the final cubic inches involved.... some posts suggest 522 and others 535. What is the stroke and bore ?

If you bring back one or more copies of a dyno sheet it will indicate the peak torque rpm and peak power rpm, and with the TQ/HP numbers to report.

The 535 combination I linked here in my post #10 with the 'same' cam, similar cylinder heads and a Torker II intake with 850 cfm carb made peak torque at 4400 rpm and peak power at a low 5400 rpm. A 1000 rpm spread.
With a Victor intake and 1,150-cfm Dominator carburetor it pushed the peak power to a higher 5800 rpm. A 1400 rpm spread.

.

That's incredible - 650 all in by 5400.
Does it say what the compression is?


Last edited by ponjohn; 11-22-2020 at 02:36 PM.
  #80  
Old 11-22-2020, 05:01 PM
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Formulajones Formulajones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
I'm confused as to the final cubic inches involved.... some posts suggest 522 and others 535. What is the stroke and bore ?

If you bring back one or more copies of a dyno sheet it will indicate the peak torque rpm and peak power rpm, and with the TQ/HP numbers to report.

The 535 combination I linked here in my post #10 with the 'same' cam, similar cylinder heads and a Torker II intake with 850 cfm carb made peak torque at 4400 rpm and peak power at a low 5400 rpm. A 1000 rpm spread.
With a Victor intake and 1,150-cfm Dominator carburetor it pushed the peak power to a higher 5800 rpm. A 1400 rpm spread.

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmac View Post
650-700 hp at above 6500 rpm is one thing, but poster asked for 650-700 at 6000 rpm. Does that combo you listed do that? To me, building for 6000 rpm is an entirely different level that 7000 rpm. Asking for street driveability and pump gas seems to be asking a lot. . On the street, it is going to see a LOT of 2000 rpm to 3000rpm driving. This sounds like a job for a computer controlled engine?!?!?!
I enjoyed driving high compression 13:1 on the street when premium was 110 octane and octane booster was loaded with lead and really worked.

Is there a formula for how many cubic inches you need to get 700hp with 10.5:1 cr at 6000 rpm? Seems like that is the starting point, and you need to work backwards from there. Maybe a turbo, or blower????? May not even need as many cubic inches!!!!



.
[/QUOTE]

A true 700hp, on pump, and driven regularly on the street?

Similar to dad's. He made 724 HP at a peak of just 5700 rpm. Peak torque of 764 was down at 4,000 where they started the pulls but the curve was already falling, so we never really found out exactly where it started, but even with that the spread was 1700 rpm, and it stayed over 700 ft lbs. for the entire pull, so it's a very happy engine.

This gets easier with more CI, and a good cylinder head. Which is why he went the direction of more cubic inch building a 571 Pontiac and stayed with the old Edelbrock round port heads he already had (not high ports). Now it doesn't need quite as much camshaft, and the smallish Pontiac conventional heads while hurting HP a bit, will make gobs of torque. He has no need to spin the engine up tight, makes torque everywhere, and cruises just as easy as the more mild engines I have here.

Of course it can be done with smaller CI Pontiac, but it requires a really good cylinder head and generally more camshaft, then drivability starts to become a concern for many, and what is considered a "real" street engine that you can use on a regular basis.

For comparison sake, Many of the crate 540 BBC's offered use the same (small for the engine size) Comp 248/254 camshaft, have 10:1 compression, and come with a dyno sheet, and they make right at 700 HP around 6,000 rpm, but torque is lower in the 670 range. Blueprint sells one just like this with a warranty. But it's a little easier to hit that HP goal with this engine and the small camshaft considering the heads flow nearly 370 cfm on the intake side and have excellent exhaust flow to go with it.
Doesn't have the torque curve the Pontiac will though. Personally I prefer to have a great cylinder head so I don't have to go so crazy on camshaft when I'm looking to hit a certain power goal. Makes for a happy street engine that's a little more on the tame side. Cubic Inch is your friend.

Just depends on how you want to approach it. Most street cars in here will have a hard time harnessing the torque curve a big inch Pontiac will make, or even the Chevrolet example for that matter.

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Last edited by Formulajones; 11-22-2020 at 05:10 PM.
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