#21  
Old 10-17-2020, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by slowbird View Post
What fuel? You compression limited?
Given I run 30 minute and hour long races and go through 30-40 gallons a race weekend, I'd like to run pump gas, which is what I built my newest 433 using KRE's. But I seriously doubt I could get the HP I need using Iron heads and pump gas. New sanction doesn't care what compression I run or fuel.
I figured with IV heads and my current flat tops I'd end up around 11.5:1 or so, price I'd have to pay to play.

For the tracks I want to run in Vintage racing over the next few years I'll have to switch sanctions to run those. Basically, bucket list racing.
Vintage sanctions can be hard to jump one to the other unless your car is built to a nationally recognized class. An iron headed dual plane gets me within their rules.

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Old 10-17-2020, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ho428 View Post
Given I run 30 minute and hour long races and go through 30-40 gallons a race weekend, I'd like to run pump gas, which is what I built my newest 433 using KRE's. But I seriously doubt I could get the HP I need using Iron heads and pump gas. New sanction doesn't care what compression I run or fuel.
I figured with IV heads and my current flat tops I'd end up around 11.5:1 or so, price I'd have to pay to play.

For the tracks I want to run in Vintage racing over the next few years I'll have to switch sanctions to run those. Basically, bucket list racing.
Vintage sanctions can be hard to jump one to the other unless your car is built to a nationally recognized class. An iron headed dual plane gets me within their rules.

Did they change the rules or did you change organizations?

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Old 10-18-2020, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ho428 View Post
Given I run 30 minute and hour long races and go through 30-40 gallons a race weekend, I'd like to run pump gas, which is what I built my newest 433 using KRE's. But I seriously doubt I could get the HP I need using Iron heads and pump gas. New sanction doesn't care what compression I run or fuel.
I figured with IV heads and my current flat tops I'd end up around 11.5:1 or so, price I'd have to pay to play.

For the tracks I want to run in Vintage racing over the next few years I'll have to switch sanctions to run those. Basically, bucket list racing.
Vintage sanctions can be hard to jump one to the other unless your car is built to a nationally recognized class. An iron headed dual plane gets me within their rules.
Compression is free hp/tq run as much as you can.
600+hp from a 433ci on pump gas and iron heads will pretty tough in my opinion.

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Old 10-18-2020, 01:53 AM
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Just playing around with an old desktop dyno program. 623 HP @ 7000 but it is with 13:1 CR.

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Old 10-18-2020, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Just playing around with an old desktop dyno program. 623 HP @ 7000 but it is with 13:1 CR.

Stan

Stan why did you sim 785 lift when the head profile stops at 600?

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Old 10-18-2020, 10:48 AM
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Compression is free hp/tq run as much as you can.
600+hp from a 433ci on pump gas and iron heads will pretty tough in my opinion.
I realize Pump gas with Iron isn't going to happen, especially with a dual plane intake.
For longevity I'm thinking 11.5:1 or so would be the easiest on the internals for hr long races, and using IV's might have a shot at 600.
With such an engine I wouldn't have to swap engines but race fuel prices for a 4-5 race weekends a year gets expensive.
For budget concerns building one with Iron D's for the SVRA races and use my pump gas Aluminum head engine for HSR and VDCA races is the most practical since I have two almost identical 433 short blocks and I run primarily with VDCA.
SVRA runs nation wide, requires extensive travel and the Iron heads, so maybe 1-2 events a year over the next decade with them as I hit the bucket list tracks like Road America, Watkins Glen, Mosport, Mid Ohio, COTA and Laguna. Right now I run with HSR and VDCA, they allow my car to run as is, but they're regional and it took a lot of lobbying to get in with them.

It gets complicated trying to race a big inch Pontiac engine competitively in Vintage Road Racing.

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Old 10-18-2020, 11:01 AM
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Might could get by with half race gas half race gas. FWIW my zero deck flat top 400 and 614s had no audible detonation but did pick up 8 hp with race gas.

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  #28  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:50 AM
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Stan why did you sim 785 lift when the head profile stops at 600?
Where did my cam numbers come from? While I have not had any time lately to work on it I do have a Beta version of David Vizard's TMC for Pontiacs and while it comes up with more HP it also wanted more head flow. So I used those numbers. When I reduce the lift DeskTop Dyno reduce its HP. If all I do is reduce both valve lifts by 0.1" here is the results.

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  #29  
Old 10-18-2020, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbird View Post
Compression is free hp/tq run as much as you can.
600+hp from a 433ci on pump gas and iron heads will pretty tough in my opinion.
We were over 13.5 comp with our 408 with the iron head. Going to be tough to do on pump gas I agree

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  #30  
Old 10-18-2020, 04:15 PM
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Default Torco ?

Is it possible that Torco Accelerator might work with pump gas, in order to make your race fuel a bit cheaper, but still provide enuff octane ?

https://torcousa.com/products/accelerator

It's available in 6 quart cases & 5 gal pails.

Don't know the cheapest current source, for total shipped price. Might depend on whether anybody still ships this without charging tax.

https://www.superchargedmotorsports....RoCP20QAvD_BwE

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-f500010t

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Torco-F5...M53AAK93BT23CT

https://autoplicity.com/1500494-torc...xoC_foQAvD_BwE


Last edited by ponyakr; 10-18-2020 at 04:43 PM.
  #31  
Old 10-18-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Where did my cam numbers come from? While I have not had any time lately to work on it I do have a Beta version of David Vizard's TMC for Pontiacs and while it comes up with more HP it also wanted more head flow. So I used those numbers. When I reduce the lift DeskTop Dyno reduce its HP. If all I do is reduce both valve lifts by 0.1" here is the results.

Stan

See attached.
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  #32  
Old 10-18-2020, 04:19 PM
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Can you run E85?

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Old 10-18-2020, 04:21 PM
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I would hit the 11.5 compression target and run Avgas as it is cheap and works.

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  #34  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:25 PM
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See attached.
I am not sure what you are trying to tell.

With 0.785" Intake lift and 0.753" Exhaust lift simulation shows 623 HP @ 7000 RPM

Only change made was to reduce both valve lifts 0.100"
With 0.685" Intake lift and 0.653" Exhaust lift simulation shows 591 HP @ 7000 RPM with 592 HP @ 6500 RPM

Stan

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  #35  
Old 10-18-2020, 06:02 PM
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The SD ported 272 cfm #48s, 70cc heads I sold might get you close. I believe the fella I sold them to might be interested in selling them. As far as I know they are still new as SD shipped them to me.
Probably get them for around 2K. They were very nice heads, wish I did not sell them.

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Old 10-18-2020, 09:13 PM
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The SD ported 272 cfm #48s, 70cc heads I sold might get you close. I believe the fella I sold them to might be interested in selling them. As far as I know they are still new as SD shipped them to me.
Probably get them for around 2K. They were very nice heads, wish I did not sell them.
I plan to contact Dave, he's built a couple sets of KRE's for me, I'll see what he has to say about building some D port Iron heads specific for my application.

The prices I've been getting behind the scenes for 614's and 722's is just ridiculous considering I only need cores, they'd be built specific anyway. I can't put 3 grand into a set of cores and start from there.

I did talk to a couple of our "head" players about building IV's in Iron since prices are getting close to where Iron V's were only a few years ago, but they don't think there is a market for Iron IV heads.
Which I don't understand, if I could buy built new Iron IV's for 3 grand I'd do it, but I can't put 3 grand into 50 year old IV cores and then another 3 grand into the build. Yet people will drop 3 grand to have old D ports ported and built.

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Old 10-18-2020, 09:37 PM
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Default 441 Pontiac Ram Air IV E-85

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Can you run E85?
That is what I want to do, build a 4" stroke, 3" main, perhaps with a 1967 400 block (thicker walls), with Ram AIr IV 614 heads with 12.75 or so compression ration, with E-85. How doable is that, assuming a consistent true E-85 supply with a quadrajet. (Or some EFI setup that adjusts on the fly for E-70etc)

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  #38  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:58 PM
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The prices I've been getting behind the scenes for 614's and 722's is just ridiculous considering I only need cores, they'd be built specific anyway. I can't put 3 grand into a set of cores and start from there.

I did talk to a couple of our "head" players about building IV's in Iron since prices are getting close to where Iron V's were only a few years ago, but they don't think there is a market for Iron IV heads.
Which I don't understand, if I could buy built new Iron IV's for 3 grand I'd do it, but I can't put 3 grand into 50 year old IV cores and then another 3 grand into the build. Yet people will drop 3 grand to have old D ports ported and built.
You are looking for castings that belong on cars that bring North of 100k. The original service heads bring big money especially when they have never been touched with a grinder. But all RAIV heads have always been desirable, brought good money and are still IMO one of the coolest heads you can run on a Pontiac. The last pair I've seen go for less than 2k was a couple of years ago and they had several cracks and a boogered up port job.

I think you can reach your goal with either head but it will be considerably easier with the round ports and they will be more reliable. The d-ports will have to flow at least 260 cfm but need a maxed out exhaust port to make good power at 7k on a 4" stroke engine (I hope that's what you are using). I'm not sure how the thin ports will hold up under road race conditions. Not uncommon for them to start leaking water after a lot of 1/4 mile passes.

Years ago one of the reproduction parts companies were going to make the RAIV heads but unfortunately the "made in the USA" company they hired decided it was easier to steal the front money and spend years in court than get off their azzes and produce the parts they were hired to make.

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  #39  
Old 10-19-2020, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ho428 View Post
I plan to contact Dave, he's built a couple sets of KRE's for me, I'll see what he has to say about building some D port Iron heads specific for my application.

The prices I've been getting behind the scenes for 614's and 722's is just ridiculous considering I only need cores, they'd be built specific anyway. I can't put 3 grand into a set of cores and start from there.

I did talk to a couple of our "head" players about building IV's in Iron since prices are getting close to where Iron V's were only a few years ago, but they don't think there is a market for Iron IV heads.
Which I don't understand, if I could buy built new Iron IV's for 3 grand I'd do it, but I can't put 3 grand into 50 year old IV cores and then another 3 grand into the build. Yet people will drop 3 grand to have old D ports ported and built.
I think you can have him set up a pair of your cores for around 1800$. Not too bad really. I have another set of 48s I might have him do.
Butler was hooked up with someone years ago that was supposed to reproduce RAIVs that went 290cfm as cast. Myself, I would like to see some 614s cast in steel. Then you could easily "wide port" them and have something special. Do them with modern chamber and plug placement, killer head IMO.
Stock looking street racers could make some money with them . As far as weight, its not like you are taking 100lbs off your engine like a BBC going from iron to aluminum.

I have kicked myself in the @$$ for not buying some 614s when I had the chance. Way back when I started my 455 build(85) I bought 197 HO heads for 600$, good deal. But I could have had 614 RAIVs for 900$ untouched from a guy Dan knew. I cheaped out. Ended up with nice heads but would rather have the smaller chamber RAIVs.

  #40  
Old 10-19-2020, 06:47 AM
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Can the OP run E85 fuel?

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