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THE LOBBY A gathering place. Introductions, sports, showin' off your ride, birthday-anniversary-milestone, achievements, family oriented humor. |
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#21
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My dad, a diehard Pontiac guy, bought a new 68 wagon with I believe a 400. The timing set failed on the way home from the dealer. I didn't ask for details, any time it was brought up he would be furious all over again. 40 years was a long time to hold a grudge against a timing chain and some gears. He worked for a Chevy/Pontiac dealer from 59-63 and would tell me stories of stuff the factory would dump on the dealers. Stuff like one car that pulled REALLY hard to one side because they didn't put brakes shoes on one rear side, and wrapped heavy wire around the wheel cylinder to keep the pistons from coming out. Trying to find a rattle, pulling beer cans out of the insides of the doors. So when the failure happened in 68, it was just another ....
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#22
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During the time period these were used, the factory warranty was 50K miles on drivetrain. There were timing sets failing under warranty, more than other brands? The Pontiac dealer I worked at as a line technician sold 50-60 new cars a month, so a medium sized dealer for this area. We were replacing about 1 timing set a week under warranty as I remember. I remember distinctly that GM WOULD NOT pay for an oil change during this warranty repair and WOULD NOT PAY for removal of the oil pan to clean out the plastic teeth. We would spray 2-3 containers of solvent from a pressurized spray container into the front gap of the oil pan with the timing cover removed and oil drain plug out to "flush" the plastic teeth out the drain plug hole. Of course if the oil was slugged up, it wouldn't work very well. Many customers would NOT PAY for an oil change during this repair. They were already pissed the engine had failed. The dealer attitude was if the customer wasn't going to pay, and GM was not going to pay, they sure as hell were not going to pay. So we left the oil filter on the engine and ran the drained oil through a paint strainer paper cone, and put it back in. We had several of these jobs come back with all the bearings spun and knocking or not running. On disassembly, the oil pick-ups were found to be packed tight with timing teeth. If they were over 50K miles when this happened, that's when the fireworks began between customer, dealer and GM. Generally, they worked out some sort of cost sharing for a new short block. So if you ever wondered why so many Pontiac's had service replacement blocks installed, now you have part of the answer. It was a different world in the 1970's. Customers were NOT king, and GM had 50% of the entire new car market. Customer care and concern were way down the list once the car left the showroom. Expectations were the car would be traded-in for a replacement every 3-4 years.
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#23
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Quote:
So not every Pontiac Dealer walked away from their customers and had them eat the repairs. Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#24
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I thought to 50k and the gear was gone. I had a 70 Fbody-350 that had red light on,car body is actually the one I still have,I pulled pan yep clogged screen .pulled bearings all ok. Put on another pump,fired ran well. Sold it.Got lucky.
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#25
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One memorable occasion on this topic..stop me if you heard it before.....
My wife and i were visiting my sister in San Diego, winter of '73....They had a trip set up to Yosemite with another couple, so we all went with them (6 of us total) up to Yosemite in the other couple's 70 Lemans. On the way back, outside of Sun City Ca, the dash goes all red and the driver pulls over. He cranks the engine and it has the typical sound I've heard before, timing gear failure. I asked him what was the mileage....about 50K, second clue. To close the story, A CHP officer picked us up, then pulled over a Firebird that was weaving over the road. Turned out he was a Navy guy sleepily heading back to San Diego. The officer convinced him to take us all back to keep him awake. A bit crowded in the gen 1 Bird with 7 of us there.. George
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"...out to my ol'55, I pulled away slowly, feeling so holy, god knows i was feeling alive"....written by Tom Wait from the Eagles' Live From The Forum |
#26
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I found another original timing set in a 68,000 mile 326 from a 67 Lemans yesterday. All the teeth still there. Another one to hang on the wall.
Still some low mileage engines around after all these years.
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#27
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I had a conversation years ago with a retired Pontiac Dealership parts manager concerning the Plastic coated timing gears. He was convinced the reason some failed early was due to overheating during the bonding process when they were made. He said when he needed a timing set he would order at least 5 from the warehouse. Before putting them on the shelf he would inspect the gears for the color of the plastic. He said they would range from a creamy white to a dark tan almost brown.
He would return any sets that were not creamy white. He claims that they never had one fail that started out that color. Seems like a reasonable conclusion. But I only have his word for it. I did remove a Plastic coated gear from a low mileage 78 Buick 350 a couple of years ago. Still in perfect shape with 36,000 miles on it.
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Jeff R 60 Jaguar Mark 2, 3.8L Automatic 67 Sprint Firebird 230 OHC-6 4-Speed A/C 78 Catlina Safari, Pontiac 400 powered 77 Astre Formula, 215 Buick V-8 T-5 73 Lemans Safari, 400 4bbl 4-speed 71 Catalina Enforcer, 455 4bbl 06 Mallet Solstice #024 LS2, Now with a Tremec 6060 6-speed! 2012 F-150 Echo Boost (My local Ford Dealer SUX!!!) 2020 Dodge Charger Scat pack (recovered) |
#28
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"Detonator 8" was the PMD nickname given by mechanics in the early 80's due to the nylon gear, and cast rods.
Last edited by Half-Inch Stud; 04-02-2020 at 07:54 AM. |
#29
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The only thing worse than these nylon time bombs were timing belts in interference engines. Great idea! Not.
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“Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan Press On! has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” ― Calvin Coolidge |
#30
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Have kept this one around for whatever reason I’m not quite sure, found it today while trying to clean and organize my garage. Thought I’d share a couple pictures before it gets tossed, the nylon gear teeth are still very nice on it.
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1964 Tempest Coupe LS3/4L70E/3.42 1964 Le Mans Convertible 421 HO/TH350/2.56 2002 WS6 Convertible LS1/4L60E/3.23 |
#31
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Anybody here old enough (or well-schooled enough) to tell me if I'm remembering correctly that the cam gear on a '36 Chevy (my first car) was all fiber except the hub?
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) |
#32
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Yes Jack, I remember working with my dad on a I-6 216 that was originally a chevy truck chassis that someone had converted to a stationary power plant for a ski tow. I remember asking him about the fiber upper timing gear when he was doing the fall startup at she ski resort, and had pulled the head (valve job), and timing cover to inspect the timing gears. Since all that was left was the chassis and driveline, there was no way to determine what year this engine was.
From what I was able to look up on the web the 216 production began in 1937 though 1953 so it wouldn't have been the exact same engine you had in a 1936 chevy. Further research show the 1936 was 207 CI. It took a 7/8 inch wide fiber timing gear that fits 1933-1936 chevy I-6 engines. Link to NOS fiber timing gear on E Bay: https://www.ebay.com/p/1227924023 Chevy/GM continued using that same design of timing gear until at least the mid 80s. I had a 1988 Fiero that stripped the teeth off the gear of the 4 cylinder that was patterned off of the chevy 6 that was a new design in 1963, to replace the 235 older design that began in the 30s. It also had a knurled steel sleeve for the hub, with resin and fiber mold cast over the sleeve, so they used that design for over 50 years on the I-6 and I-4 engines. |
#33
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Thanks for the answer Brad!
I honestly can't remember whether I needed to change the timing gear, or I just opened it up out of curiosity.
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) |
#34
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S305. Aren't these like service replacements? I have an
original, but it says GM 9794243. On the S305s there's a logo, perhaps the manufacturer? |
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