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#41
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Yea, the 200 haters are wrong again. Imagine that. A lot of folks spend a whole bunch of money trying to shave 50 pounds out of their cars. You did it by picking the right transmission.
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77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning. |
#42
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My 200-4R held up great, but the wholesale cost of internals was over $1,400 not counting case, converter, labor or mark-up several years ago. Today's wholesale price would be closer to $2,000 for the parts. So when a trans shop builds out either a 200 or 700 for an out-the-door price way under that, it's no wonder there are failures. Either transmission really needs a lot of beefing up to survive.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry has been told they have a "500 horsepower" engine that is really nowhere near that, so advertising a trans to hold the phony horsepower is usually pretty safe for transmission companies. Then comes along something that actually does put out some power and the trans scatters. Meanwhile they have gotten away selling hundreds of transmissions with exaggerated capabilities to people that don't have the power to break them.
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Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress. |
#43
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Very true Mick.
I've typically avoided any of the OD units for big power applications but have done a few 200-4R's with all the good stuff and to date they are holding up fine. Be sitting down when a shop pricing one out with all the good stuff tells you what it is going to cost. Something else to realize here is that even if you are making "big" power you're not likely to break a lot of parts unless you take steps to get the car to hook hard. So your 200, 700 or other OD trans will probably survive pretty well without a lot of costly internal upgrades. Traction changes the game when it comes to breaking parts. I drove and raced my car for many years with pretty much "stock" drivetrain parts. Never hooked all that hard nor did I break anything anyplace. When I installed the first 455 engine only making 1hp/CID and about 540 tq I spent some time with the suspension and tires to the car to hook hard. I broke two 8.5 "S" type center sections in two track outings. Next outing I twisted up the driveshaft so I stopped racing the car long enough to upgrade EVERYTHING behind the engine because I broke something just about every time I went to the track! It was costly but I have't had any issues since other than twisting the spring perches off the axle tubes which simply required better welds to hold them in place........Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#44
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Quote:
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
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#45
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Quote:
Smaller displacement motors (especially turbo motors) can touch that "500hp" number above 6000rpm, but the transmission is never going to see the torque that a 455 makes at launch. I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen a transmission break at the end of a run. They break in the burnout box or off the hit.
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77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning. |
#46
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Quote:
A length of bar and I can make 500 ft.lbs with my hands... but an Olympic athlete would be hard pressed to make much more than 2.5 HP. Horsepower is the energy that breaks chit. A friend of mine ran a 8.5 diff running 9's for two years at the track (full weight 2nd gen F-body), never broke it. Then he upgraded the car big. New rear, trans and twin turbo running 8's Last edited by pastry_chef; 07-09-2020 at 06:57 PM. |
#47
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I originally avoided the horsepower/torque argument by saying "does put out some power" which I thought would skip the on-going argument. The formula converting torque to horsepower or vise-versa gives a value based on output at a given RPM. "Horsepower is torque at work" comes to mind.
"So if you multiply torque (in pound-feet) by engine speed (in RPM) and divide the product by 5,252, RPM is converted to "radians per second" and you can get from torque to horsepower -- from "pound-feet" to "foot-pounds per second." If I break a shaft with 500 foot pounds of torque at 3,000 RPM, then I also broke the shaft with 285.6 horsepower at 3,000 RPM.
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Mick Batson 1967 original owner Tyro Blue/black top 4-speed HO GTO with all the original parts stored safely away -- 1965 2+2 survivor AC auto -- 1965 Catalina Safari Wagon in progress. |
#48
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A good test for myth-busters.. Apply two thousand ft-lbs at just 5 RPM to a driveline that is locked solid.. the ring and pinion would NEVER break..
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#49
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Quote:
And no, it isn't "horsepower" doing that. It's using a stall convertor to allow the inertia of the engine to deliver a high amount of torque to the drive line. Horsepower isn't a kinematic force. Horsepower can't break anything because it's something humans invented to standardize a measurement of torque. It isn't the RPMs (the other variable in the HP equation) that break transmissions, it's the twisting force (which is torque).
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77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning. Last edited by Navy Horn 16; 07-10-2020 at 12:02 AM. |
#50
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A fair amount of LOL here. Keep it up.
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#51
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How come NASA and Nascar R&D only look at power? https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/ottoa.html In fact, Nascar R&D looks at horsepower differences for every engine cylinder. No mention of torque. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZCnG1HwDM In my previous example, two thousand ft.lbs at only 5 RPM - Repeat after that with two thousand ft.lbs at 3000 RPM then engage the locked driveline.. I don't want to be anywhere near that... most definitely there will be an explosion!! Way more energy (power). |
#52
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Horsepower Vs Torque / The Difference, Why It Matters, And How To Get It
Engines don't make horsepower; they convert fuel into torque.......... https://www.hotrod.com/articles/horsepower-vs-torque/ ( Information provided in this post does not represent any endorsement and is offered for general interest only ) .
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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#53
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Engines convert fuel into PRESSURE.. from this power and toque..
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/ottoa.html |
#54
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I don't know what your background is, so I'm not sure where to start the explanation so you will understand it. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but you are wrong and I'm trying to help you understand. As the joke goes, "Civil Engineers build targets, mechanical engineers build weapons."
I can promise you, engineers that design transmissions do not test them vs HP ratings. The test benches that twist component parts to failure measure torque. Engine dynamometers don't measure horsepower, they measure torque and time, and the computer has an equation to compute HP. The engineers that make parts are concerned with the forces that will cause failure, that force, is torque. The engineers that have to make those parts go down the road are concerned with the RATE at which they will accelerate and travel down the road. Somewhere along the line, a guy with a marketing degree gets paid to talk to the engineers and come up with a plan to sell the cars. That guy doesn't go all the way back to Detroit and talk to the guys who design transmission components, they talk to the performance engineers. Consumers get sold Horsepower, all the while torque wins races. Horsepower doesn't exist as a kinematic force. It is simply a unit of measure, that seems to be really confusing to some people.
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77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning. Last edited by Navy Horn 16; 07-10-2020 at 10:49 AM. |
#55
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There was a Speed-talk debate a few years back with tons of big industry names. I was not surprised to see the top industry leaders.. those with championships and records all were siding with horsepower. People can believe what they want. |
#56
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Quote:
I've led you to the water, I'm not going to hold your head under it.
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77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning. |
#57
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Funny how auto manufacturing has been built around "Torque converters" and not "Horse power converters"
On subject, my stage 3 will destroy driveshaft and yokes on a hard downshift, before it hurts the 2004R. If you don't beat the crap outta your car/ wallet/ tires/ drivers license... the 2004R is a nice light fuel saver. |
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#58
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Navy ... were you a "Nuke" ?
I remember when they were teaching the difference between Torque and Power (in whatever unit you want). As an example they used a steam engine, it develops maximum torque at zero RPM and produces no "power" at all. They pounded it in our young heads that Torque was a "Force" and Power was a measure of the ability to do work. And to do work you have to convert the torque into motion. Which is why torque can be measured at zero RPM and HP cannot. And conversely, you can calculate exactly how much power it took to lift a 100 lb weight 100 feet, but you have no idea what torque was applied to achieve that feat. Not saying it's applicable in this discussion ... but you probably remember the same stuff. |
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#59
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"Nuke Waste" actually. I made it through nuke MM A-School and got my 3rd class crow, and then flunked out of power school. The joke that I tell everyone is that "There was a personalty test, mine came back positive, so they kicked me out."
While in the process of flunking out, I learned enough math and physics (which was my weak spot in HS) to smoke the SAT after I got to Groton for Submarine school. So, I went from being a flunk-out to having to choose between Annapolis and several dozen ROTC programs. I chose the University of Texas. I majored in Political Science, but every Navy ROTC Student has to take 2 semesters of Calculus and 2 Semesters of Calculus based physics. So, I had really weird electives for being on the "Poly-Sci and Fly" program. I just went over 20 years of service this past week. I'm a helicopter pilot by trade in the Navy (H-60s) and a flight instructor in the T-6 Texan. I've seen cockpit gauges in rated torque, but I've never in my life seen a HP gauge. I've seen aircraft being grounded for an "over-torque", but never an "over-HP". And RPM of the engines and rotor systems is pretty dang important if you want to stay alive. It is kind of amusing to have these discussions with people who are so in love with a position that they don't realize they are arguing with an expert.
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77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning. |
#60
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200r4
OK i have mine back in and driving now. I had to travel a bunch for work so I couldn't wok on it for a while. It shifts real nice, not too hard, there are 2 things that bug me a little bit. 1) if i got medium or heavy acceleration i have to lift my foot just slightly for it to shift. If I loosen the cable it shifts 1-2 too fast.
2) It doesn't go int OD until just over 65 mph. i have been adjusting the cable but this seems the best i can get. Any ideas on how to lower the OD shift? thanks Bryan |
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