[LUST01]

The GTO was the first packaged performance car that was sold in American that pretty much anyone could buy. There were faster and more powerful cars sold but you had to have the knowledge on how to order one. You could not walk into a Pontiac Dealer in 1963 and buy a SD 421 Catalina off the showroom floor. I sure there were a few dealers Royal might have stocked one but they weren't the avarage dealer.

[1970gpsj4speed]

It was only allowed 10lbs per 1 hp not to exceed.GTO was the first car to exceed the rule of 10 to 1 .MUSCLECAR WAS BORN

[poison heart]

I guess that means that the '64 GTO was about 3600 lbs?

[1970gpsj4speed]

I think is was 389 in 3550 or so

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by LUST01

The GTO was the first packaged performance car that was sold in American that pretty much anyone could buy. There were faster and more powerful cars sold but you had to have the knowledge on how to order one. You could not walk into a Pontiac Dealer in 1963 and buy a SD 421 Catalina off the showroom floor. I sure there were a few dealers Royal might have stocked one but they weren't the avarage dealer.

Did the Pontiac dealer need to have certain credentials in order to sell SD cars?? Or could any dealer order one?? Today with Ford, not every dealer can be an SVT dealer (cobras and other special project Fords)

[1967Clone]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

Did the Pontiac dealer need to have certain credentials in order to sell SD cars?? Or could any dealer order one?? Today with Ford, not every dealer can be an SVT dealer (cobras and other special project Fords)

Same with Dodge, not any dealer can sell and service SRT vehicles.

[poison heart]

I didn't know that.

[LUST01]

In the late fifties and early sixties Pontiac was in the process of changing there image from an old mans car to a performance one. While guys like Kundsen, DeLorean and Wangers understood performance alot of exectuives at Pontiac did not. It is well known that Frank Bridge did not think the 64 GTO would sell and was reluctant to build the first 5000 units. When Pontiac started building Superduty parts, Wangers wanted to educate dealers about selling high performance cars and parts. He soon realized that most dealers did not care. This coupled to the fact that Frank Bridge did want the dealers involved in anything special, they had enough trouble selling & servicing regular cars. Knudsen allowed Wangers do find one dealer as a guinea pig do try his performance dealer idea on. Ace Wilson was willing and thus Royal Pontiac became Pontiac's first high performance dealership with back door access to Pontiac Enginering. There were a few other dealers that became active in racing and selling high performance cars and parts: Knafel in Akron Ohio, Myrtle in New York, Gay in HoustonTexas, Livingston in LA, Colonial In Miami and Stephens in Connecticut and a few others. Most dealer sold GTO's and Firebirds but hated the warranty problems assocated with these cars

[poison heart]

That's good info. I did not know that stuff.

[chicagoland]

Most car history books state that it's the combination of a midsize car body and near 400 cube inch motor that made GTO the 1st "Muscle car". GM had said 'nothing over 330ci' for the new 1964 midsize A body. But John DeLorean snuck the 389 as part of the 'GTO option package'. Most of the rest of story is well known.

The Chrysler 300 was a packaged performance car for any buyer, however, it was a full sized car. Same with Impala SS and Grand Prix.

yeah, the 63 Tempest SD was a "built for racing only" smaller car. Also, Mopar's smaller Fury and Polara were classified as 'standard family size' in their marketing.

And finally, a muscle car is NOT just 'any old RWD car with a V8' as some younger car fans think. I've seen eBay ads for old 350 2 barrel V8 Impalas/Chevelles saying 'buy this old muscle car'. nope.

[chicagoland]

"...nutjobs of the epa consider anything with a 112 wheelbase or longer a "Full size"car!!!."

Actaully, the EPA bases car class size on interior room, not outside dimensions. The new Accord is called a 'large car', believe it or not.


"It's funny that a big ol GTO is a midsize car"

Younger fans see old cars as all same 'big' size, but there was a time when there was just one class size of car! [1920s to 50s'] They were differentiated by price, instead. By 50's 'standard cars' had gotten so big and VW bug was stealing sales, so the new compacts came out. Then the middies, then Stang/F body, etc.

Park a 64-73 GTO next to a same year Bonneville and see the reason why its called midsized. The 74 was in the 'compact' class of the time.

[poison heart]

All I know is my '62 Catalina is not much bigger than my friends '65 Lemans but my '59 is a whole lot bigger than my '62.

So a Chevelle is not a 'muscle car?' THE 'muscle car' is not considered a 'muscle car'?

I don't know, now it seems like it's all just a label. Who cares what it's called. They were all big and most of them hauled ass. That's all that matters to me.

Does that mean there were no 4 door muscle cars? What about a 4 door '67 Coronet with a 440 and a 4 speed? What about a Corvette? Does that count?

[chicagoland]

Chevelles were a whole line of mid sized cars from 2 door to wagons. It is the Chevelle SS that is the 'muscle car'. Many Chevelles were 4 doors, wagons, and had six cylinders or small low HP V8's.

The Coronet 4 door could count, but it wasn't marketed at the time as one.

Corvette is a Sports Car, pure and simple.

[poison heart]

I see what you mean about the Chevelles. But with that said, What about a '69 Camaro Z28 with a 302? I have a friend who bought his in 1971, all original 302 4 speed and it runs 13.3 at SA Raceway. Still owns it too.

I agree with Vettes.

[Keith Seymore]

Small block Camaros are not "muscle cars", but "pony cars". Built to compete against the (then) new Ford Mustang.

It's all very complicated...

[1970gpsj4speed]

If a chevelle had a 396 or bigger it was a Muscle car and i think it is a 108 wheelbase

[440GP69]

The BOP Muscle was always my favorite, I always Dreamed that some day I'd have a Black 70 Buick GS Stage 1 455 car, 68" Hurst" Olds 442 390hp 455 silver with black stripes and a 69 Verdero Green RA4 4speed 3.90 gear GTO all in one garage, So Far All i Have is a Highly Moded 69 Grand Prix 428 car 535 now soon to be black, Lucky to have any muscle cars these days !

[poison heart]

haha Pony cars. Is 13.3 fast for a 302 camaro? I couldn't believe that a 302 could get that Camaro down the track that quick.

[LUST01]

Just because a car has a small block/small CID V8 does not disquilfy it from being a muscle car. It depends on which engine you are talking about: 350 2 barrel Tempest is not a muscle car but a one that came with a 350HO is. So is a W31 Cutlass or an L79Chevelle. Being able to spin a motor at 6000+ RPM makes up for lack of cubes. Same goes for the Trans Am 5 liter engines (Z28, Boss 302). Those engines were good to 7000 rpm. It is all about power to weight. Muscle Car Review had a list (not the 50 fastest list) of cars they concidered muscle cars. The cars had to have a power to weight ratio better than 14 to 1. All the cars I mentioned above were on the list.

[Region Warrior]

From the dictionary.

muscle car

powerful car: a flashy car with a big engine, designed to look like a sports car.