[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

From the dictionary.

muscle car

powerful car: a flashy car with a big engine, designed to look like a sports car.

Bah!

Obviously "Webster" wasn't a car guy....

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

From the dictionary.

muscle car

powerful car: a flashy car with a big engine, designed to look like a sports car.

"Muscle car" as defined by Webster:

[poison heart]

That's the worst one so far! It's funny how different these all are so far.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Basically look for factory 4 barrel, (including tripower, dual quad or FI) HP V8 in a 2 door car with dual exhaust and a backseat that may also have other performance packages , posi . etc .. I consider the "Pony Car" to branch from the "Muscle Car" and the other term "Super Car" can also include special FS models (in my book). But the standard definition IS the mid-size model with a oversize and/or HP V8 (meaning that body style must also come in a low hp , econo version ie: 64 389-4v GTO vs 64 326-2v Tempest).
I have a hardtime saying a 63 SD Catalina wouldnt be a Super Car/Muscle Car.

[Region Warrior]

If FB's and Camaro's(uni-body) are "pony cars", the Dodge Chargers are also.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Well those Fat-Azzz 71-73 Boatstang's are about the same size as a Charger ... LOL

[1967Clone]

Who cares?

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Originally Posted by 1967Clone

Who cares?

Who azzed you clown ? Those were some ugly Mustangs..as were the Chargers those years too.

[1967Clone]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC LARRY

Who azzed you clown ? Those were some ugly Mustangs..as were the Chargers those years too.

Who asked you to comment on my comment?

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Would you call a 326 HO 2 dr Lemans/Tempest a muscle car at 285 hp?

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC LARRY

Would you call a 326 HO 2 dr Lemans/Tempest a muscle car at 285 hp?

Yes.

A GTOAA chapter that I belong to, the Land of Lakes GTO Club in Minnesota, has conducted their annual Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic for twenty-two years. Paul Zazarine calls it the best annual gathering of American muscle cars in the upper midwest. I was part of the organizing committee in 1986. The committee put together a criterion of attributes that they considered to be a "muscle car." The car had to be: built between the years 1961 and 1974, offered for sale within the borders of the USA, and have a power-to-weight ratio of 12 or less lbs shipping weight per each factory gross rated horsepower with no less than a 4-bbl or fuel injected induction system.

We have a "bible" that lists all the cars that fit these parameters. Starting with the 1961 Chevrolet Biscayne powered by the 305hp 348 4bbl through the 1974 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am with a 290 net hp factored to 363 gross hp 455 Super Duty, there are 1,820 entries.

In addition to the "Classic Muscle" category, there are also "Vintage Muscle" (1956-1960) with 167 entries, and the "Modern Muscle" (1979 - current) displays that are in a non-judged category. We consider "muscle" to be any vehicle that meets the listed qualifications, be it Avanti, Muscle Sport: Corvett and Cobra, Muscle full-sized: Bonneville, Park Lane, Polara, Muscle Pony: AMX, Mustang, Barracuda, Firebird, Camaro, Muscle Mid-size: Tempest/LeMans/GTO, Chevelle/ElCamino, Fairlane/Ranchero, Charger, Road Runner, Muscle Compact: Chevy II/Nova, Ventura GTO, Duster, Dart. All body styles are eligible, including 4-door sedans and even station wagons if they meet the power to weight requirements.

This is one organization's definition of Muscle Car, and it makes for a very diverse and interesting annual display. Believe me when I say, if a real Cobra or Super Duty Catalina rolls onto the show field, no one questions its muscle car label.

And how about Muscle Trucks? 426 wedge Dodge pickups? 427/454 Chevys? Or even 390 4bbl Ford F150s?

[goquick]

last line in post by gtoric;
And how about Muscle Trucks? 426 wedge Dodge pickups? 427/454 Chevys? Or even 390 4bbl Ford F150s?






And you forgot with the Fords the factory installed 429's, basic 4bbl or the CJ429 but with the standard production car manifolds. My 72 F250 isn't the most common factory big block, but it is one of a few! And fun to drive

[gtoric]

As long as they meet the 12:1 power to weight ratio determination.

[poison heart]

I think trucks have a hard time meeting that ratio. They weigh too much. A hemi ram is right under 14:1 weight to power. 345 horse at 4800 lbs for a single cab long bed. STR10 Rams make that ratio 10:1. 500 hp and about 5000 lbs.

I'd love to build a late 60s/early 70s Dodge Pick Up with a 426 in it.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by gtoric

Yes.

A GTOAA chapter that I belong to, the Land of Lakes GTO Club in Minnesota, has conducted their annual Land of Lakes Muscle Car Classic for twenty-two years. Paul Zazarine calls it the best annual gathering of American muscle cars in the upper midwest. I was part of the organizing committee in 1986. The committee put together a criterion of attributes that they considered to be a "muscle car." The car had to be: built between the years 1961 and 1974, offered for sale within the borders of the USA, and have a power-to-weight ratio of 12 or less lbs shipping weight per each factory gross rated horsepower with no less than a 4-bbl or fuel injected induction system.

We have a "bible" that lists all the cars that fit these parameters. Starting with the 1961 Chevrolet Biscayne powered by the 305hp 348 4bbl through the 1974 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am with a 290 net hp factored to 363 gross hp 455 Super Duty, there are 1,820 entries.

In addition to the "Classic Muscle" category, there are also "Vintage Muscle" (1956-1960) with 167 entries, and the "Modern Muscle" (1979 - current) displays that are in a non-judged category. We consider "muscle" to be any vehicle that meets the listed qualifications, be it Avanti, Muscle Sport: Corvett and Cobra, Muscle full-sized: Bonneville, Park Lane, Polara, Muscle Pony: AMX, Mustang, Barracuda, Firebird, Camaro, Muscle Mid-size: Tempest/LeMans/GTO, Chevelle/ElCamino, Fairlane/Ranchero, Charger, Road Runner, Muscle Compact: Chevy II/Nova, Ventura GTO, Duster, Dart. All body styles are eligible, including 4-door sedans and even station wagons if they meet the power to weight requirements.

This is one organization's definition of Muscle Car, and it makes for a very diverse and interesting annual display. Believe me when I say, if a real Cobra or Super Duty Catalina rolls onto the show field, no one questions its muscle car label.

And how about Muscle Trucks? 426 wedge Dodge pickups? 427/454 Chevys? Or even 390 4bbl Ford F150s?

Ive always wanted to go to this show. I hear a ton of good feedback about it.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

A 326 HO A-body would have to weigh no more than 3420#'s to hit 12:1 . It's very marginal..But I agree overall with the Club descriptions above.. There are many sub-categories , the GTO is just the "basic" universal accepted definition of a Muscle car as a seperation from previous hipo "big" cars.. It would be hard to call one of the 65-66 documented 4 door 426 Hemi-cars to not be a muscle car!

[gtoric]

Shipping weight on a '64 LeMans is 2,995 lbs. according to the Standard Catalog of American Cars. That figure is for a base car with five gallons of gas, no driver. Start adding options like the V8, power steering, power brakes, and 200 lbs of driver, pretty soon you've got a 3,500 lb car. But, all of the calculations that I made for the LOLMCC show were based on shipping weight. Here's our listing for 1964 Pontiacs:

Catalina (3750 lbs)
4V 389/320 11.72:1
6V 389/330 11.36:1
6V 421/350 10.71:1
6V 421/370 HO 10.14:1

Star Chief (3885)
6V 389/330 11.77:1
6V 421/350 11.10:1
6V 421/370 HO 10.50:1

Bonneville (3920)
6V 389/330 11.88:1
6V 421/350 11.20:1
6v 421/370 HO 11.14:1

Grand Prix (3930)
6V 389/330 11.91:1
6V 421/350 11.23:1
6v 421/370 HO 11.17:1

Tempest/Tempest Custom (2930)
4V 326/280 HO 10.46:1

LeMans (2995)
4V 326/280 HO 10.70:1

LeMans GTO (3126)
4V 389/325 9.62:1
6V 389/348 8.98:1

[poison heart]

Thats a pretty cool break down.

[WDCreech]

Poisen heart, If you had been into cars, leading up to 1964, you would have been able to see the difference between the full size and mid size cars. The 64 Tempest, LeMans and the LeMans with the GTO option, was the replacement for the 63 Tempest and LeMans, which were slightly smaller, but had the lighter unibody. When the GTO was released, I was driving a 61 Bonneville, but told myself that I would have a GTO one day. As luck would have it, I ran across a 63 LeMans builder. I drove and raced it for fourteen years, until I rolled it on the track. A friend, who was in the Air Force, had been transfered and he offered the 64, that I had found for him, to me. It's been an ongoing project since 1989, but I wouldn't trade it for anything!
As far as the Mustang is concerned, the Firebird and Camaro were released in 67, by GM, to compete with it.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

64 GTO, tube chassis w/606" IA tall deck (actually only 605.5), PG & a pro geared Fab 9". 2750 lbs.
8.2550@164.17-1/4, 5.2901@131.97-1/8, 1.1981-60-ft. 8/10/08

REAL Indians don't wear bowties

That's one BAD indian !