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Old 09-20-2019, 01:04 PM
DM3 DM3 is offline
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Default Ram Air Induction Option...

I have a rebuilt 400 which should push 400 hp. My car is not an original ran air car, but would my car benefit from installing the ram air induction kit?

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Old 09-20-2019, 01:45 PM
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Anything that gets cooler air into engine is a benefit, how much though I don’t know
Often think about adding ramair to mine for that very reason

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Old 09-20-2019, 03:49 PM
68tpls400 68tpls400 is offline
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I believe back in the day, the R/A option got you +/- five more HP.
But the cool factor is way up there. But a lot of money for 5 HP.

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Old 09-20-2019, 03:53 PM
DM3 DM3 is offline
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I agree it is a lot of money. I will hopefully have a running car by Nov. I will keep my eye out for used parts since this is a wish list item.


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Originally Posted by 68tpls400 View Post
I believe back in the day, the R/A option got you +/- five more HP.
But the cool factor is way up there. But a lot of money for 5 HP.

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Old 09-21-2019, 08:04 AM
thews thews is offline
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Originally Posted by DM3 View Post
I agree it is a lot of money. I will hopefully have a running car by Nov. I will keep my eye out for used parts since this is a wish list item.
Used parts are more expensive than new parts. Open scoops will also let water in, so you have to consider that as well.

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Old 09-21-2019, 11:16 PM
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I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that the ram air setups probably got you zero or negative power gain. The air filter size on those ram or systems are tiny and must restrict air flow. The air filter on my 69TA is probably well below half the surface area of the typical non ram air 4 bbl air filters.

Do it because it looks cool if you want but not to get actual HP.

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Old 09-22-2019, 11:40 AM
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Anything you can do to reduce the temp of the air to the carb is going to be better like Beaumont says. But I think it has been documented that the 400 scoops are not located in a spot to force any air in. Ive heard it stated that the area at the base of the windshield is the best place to expect air to be drawn in but I had a scoop on my 69 with the opening to the rear at the cowl and there happened to be a hair hanging in front of the opening so I was able to watch while driving. I never did see it being pulled toward the carb at any time. I'm sure it was a bit better because the air intake was sealed off from underhood heat. Just my personal experience. Believe what you will.

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Old 09-24-2019, 10:16 AM
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I'm not sure of how much HP can be gained from a ram air setup. I do think that it can prevent a HP loss on a very hot day by getting some cooler air around the carb. I have a 68 ram air pan on my 69 Firebird, definitely looks cool and a lot more simple than the 69 setup.

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Old 09-24-2019, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by north View Post
I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that the ram air setups probably got you zero or negative power gain. The air filter size on those ram or systems are tiny and must restrict air flow. The air filter on my 69TA is probably well below half the surface area of the typical non ram air 4 bbl air filters.

Do it because it looks cool if you want but not to get actual HP.
I'm with you on this. The scoops are pretty short and under the boundary layer of air passing over the hood at higher speeds. I believe there's a benefit at low speeds but think there might be some scavenging at higher speeds.

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Old 10-09-2019, 11:51 PM
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Back when I was racing my 67 GTO I tested a Ram Air pan at the track on back to back runs. I did have a open scoop and removed the hood bracing per the factory instructions. I picked up almost a tenth. I had kept very detailed records of each mod I did and would test several times to see if I could confirm the results. That set up was consistent for at least half a tenth to almost a tenth. I don't believe it actually provided a "ram effect" but did seal out the hot underhood air and allowed cooler outside air in. My opinion is the cooler air was the reason for the performance gain. I also had a carb spacer for this testing and had to trim the foam gasket in half to get the hood to close. So I had a very tight seal to keep out the hot underhood air. That setup used the standard 14 inch HO air cleaner with a closed lid. I wanted to try one of the open lid designs but never did. However I have heard that the open lid designs do not work well on Holley carbs but are ok on quadrajets. I agree that the smaller diameter air cleaners are going to be more restrictive. There is less surface area for the engine to breath through.


Last edited by Mcronk; 10-09-2019 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:28 AM
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Back in the day (1973) I was pretty good friends with the parts manager at the local Pontiac dealership. I also owned a 1969 non ram air GTO. I was able to purchase a pan and air cleaner for under $40 bucks that someone had ordered and never picked it up. I opened the scoops and installed it, there was a definite addition of power with it on the car per butt dyno.

I never raced on a dragstrip, so times aren't there to back it up. Doubtful Pontiac engineers went to all the trouble to tool up for something that had no effect on engine power.

Later on I tried cowl induction on my 67 GTO clone dirt car and it also worked better taking cool air from the base of the windshield. The drawback is that after a race it worked so well that I had a bunch of fine gravel/sand inside of the air cleaner base that was stopped by the air filter element. I decided not to continue using the cowl induction setup because of the amount of dirt ending up in the air cleaner base.

Chevy had more benefit from the cowl induction actually having tapped into the base of the cowl and a high pressure area than Pontiac did with their forward facing boundary layer hood scoops. Seeing that the finer dirt was ending up in my air cleaner shows that there was enough positive pressure to push dirt through the ducting, and into the air cleaner. The vents that push air into the interior of the car also show that at 60 MPH there is a definite positive pressure area near the base of the windshield.

If I wanted the best functioning system,the aftermarket system that has ducts in the front of the car near the bumper, or a cowl induction system similar to what NASCAR has used in the past (taking air from the area behind the cowl vents under the grille at the base of the windshield) are the most effective systems in my opinion from my experience.

One other thing is with open scoops I never had any problems driving the car in the rain (I lived in Erie PA at the time, and they don't call it Deary Erie because the sun shines all the time ) If memory serves me, there are small drain holes in the lowest points in the air cleaner assembly for water that would make it's way into the air cleaner to drain from.

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Last edited by Sirrotica; 10-10-2019 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 10-11-2019, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
Doubtful Pontiac engineers went to all the trouble to tool up for something that had no effect on engine power.
Because the marketing guys told them to?

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Old 10-12-2019, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wovenweb View Post
Because the marketing guys told them to?
Already posted by Mc Cronk:

Quote:
Back when I was racing my 67 GTO I tested a Ram Air pan at the track on back to back runs. I did have a open scoop and removed the hood bracing per the factory instructions. I picked up almost a tenth. I had kept very detailed records of each mod I did and would test several times to see if I could confirm the results. That set up was consistent for at least half a tenth to almost a tenth. I don't believe it actually provided a "ram effect" but did seal out the hot underhood air and allowed cooler outside air in.
There were plenty of road tests with Pontiac non ram air cars, vs ram air cars. The ram air cars came out on top, proves it to me. My own GTO converted ran better with no other changes other than opening the scoops and adding the RA parts.

For the time being it's a free country, believe whatever you want to, even if you fly in the face of facts...……..

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Old 10-12-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
Already posted by Mc Cronk:



There were plenty of road tests with Pontiac non ram air cars, vs ram air cars. The ram air cars came out on top, proves it to me. My own GTO converted ran better with no other changes other than opening the scoops and adding the RA parts.

For the time being it's a free country, believe whatever you want to, even if you fly in the face of facts...……..
So, if you look at cam selections for Ram Air cars versus non-Ram Air cars, what do you find? For '68 Firebird with manual trans, the base 400 engine got the 067, the 400 HO got the 068 and the Ram Air I got the 744. They also had different carb ID numbers and so likely jetting and hanger setups. Those items alone could account for most of the performance difference.

I'm not doubting MCCronk's results of 1/2 a tenth to a full tenth from the Ram Air setup. I'm willing to bet you would see a similar gain just by removing the factory air cleaner on a base 400. Testing by Kenne Bell on Buick 350s during the early '80s showed that result simply by removing the factory air cleaner(Item #4)

https://www.teambuick.com/reference/...0_ken_bell.php

You don't make any more money by telling the customer to get rid of the air cleaner nor do you get any style points by selling a performance upgrade(cam and carb mods) that is invisible to the eye. So, you come up with a compromise that makes subtle visual cues to the buyer, requires a contraption to be installed that likely performs no better than getting rid of the air cleaner, all for a nice little upcharge. That's marketing.

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Old 10-12-2019, 11:47 AM
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The testing I did was with the same carb and cam. No other changes were made when testing the Ram Air pan and open hood scoops. Everything else was the same even the weather conditions. My testing was done on back to back runs and several runs to confirm results.

I have seen cars pick up ET when removing a restrictive air cleaner. I have also seen cars with no improvement because the factory set up was not restrictive. My car is the 400 HO with the HO open air cleaner and showed no improvement just removing the air cleaner. Some race cars without their air induction systems and just an open carb have shown a slower ET due to air turbulence.

I recall a cheap trick on factory closed air cleaners was to flip the top lid over which left a gap and exposed the filter to open air. I personally never tested that but can say you definitely could hear the carb sucking air through that gap. LoL!

Again my test showed improvement with all else unchanged and I attribute that to sealing out the hot underhood air and breathing cooler outside air.

No doubt marketing had a huge influence on muscle cars. I am sure if one brand did something the others would copy that. We know the rear wings on most muscle cars provided little to no positive effect. But they sure looked cool at the time. Marketing had the challenge to come up with something new each model year to distinguish themselves from the competition. A good example is how the GM divisions named the colors of their cars. Divisions would use different names for the same paint code i.e. Carousel Red and Hugger Orange. Actually if it were not for "marketing" people we would not have had what is considered the first musclecar the 1964 GTO!


Last edited by Mcronk; 10-12-2019 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 10-16-2019, 10:23 AM
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So I have read all the comments, and I do not think adding the ram air equipment will be worth the money and to add maybe a few HP since the car is setup to produce 375 to 400 hp which is plenty.

But, what if I just install the open scoops? I know they are low and will not suck in tons of additional air, but I figure any additional air is better than no air at all.

I do not plan on driving the car in the rain so water getting in through the scoops is not a major concern.

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Old 10-16-2019, 11:20 AM
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You could cut them open but to what gain? You're just going to end up ruining a good set of inserts for no particular reason. I ruined/ removed and tossed so many things on my car when I was young and it has cost me a bunch of dough to hunt down and buy them again to put them back on. If you're looking for advice and want to open your scoops, my suggestion would be to find a second set of inserts to open up and put on the car and keep your orig set on a shelf just in case.
It's your car, do what you want.

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Old 10-16-2019, 11:29 AM
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Yes, i would get a second pair to alter or buy ones already open.

The main reason would be to get additional air into the engine compartment.

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Old 10-16-2019, 12:33 PM
68tpls400 68tpls400 is offline
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Even though I don't drive my car (with open scoops) in the rain, I do wash it occasionally. No mater what I do, soap and water always get into the scoops and make a mess.
Also, the scoops are not all that easy to swap out. You would probably find its not worth the effort.

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Old 10-16-2019, 12:48 PM
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Plus, you’ll have the issue of color matching if that makes a difference to you. I agree with 68tpls400, not worth the effort.

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