#21  
Old 04-11-2021, 08:02 AM
PontiacJim1959 PontiacJim1959 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines View Post
Well then for that matter, why bother making ANYTHING aftermarket for Pontiac at all? It's that sort of thinking that prevents anything from evolving.. I guess next you'll say we should all be using iron heads and 041 cams.... nothing like going backwards, huh. Some of us don't live in that box labeled "50 year old technology", nor do we think that way either.
No offense, but your analogies are way off base and don't apply to the topic.
No offense taken at all. It is my opinion that there becomes a point, where I can't see the claim that the car, or engine, has enough original components to be called "Pontiac."

The Pontiac engine certainly has its limits and can only be competitive to a point - this was learned back in the late 1960's/early 1970's when some Pontiac racers were installing Hemi engines in an effort to be competitive AND keep up with the Hemi dominated field.

When you take something like an engine and completely redesign the block from top to bottom and simply retain those identifying features common to a factory Pontiac engine such as head bolt, oil pan, and timing cover placement, and then add a never available factory top end - well, the engine has steered so far from a factory piece that it is really not a Pontiac engine anymore than the drag racers who inserted Hemi engines in their Pontiac funny cars.

So why not simply follow the earlier racers who were unable to compete using a true Pontiac engine and went Hemi? Just carve out some Pontiac specific valve covers as the Pro Stock guys did in early 2000 and slapped them on 427 Chevy big block engines and convinced themselves and the racing community that they weren't Chevy engines, they were Pontiac engines because the name on the valve cover said so. Pontiac logo valve covers on an 811 cubic inch Hemi would be a better competitor, maybe even cheaper to build, and I am sure the racing community could be convinced that no, it's not a Chrysler Hemi, but a Pontiac Hemi because the valve covers say so. With the broad acceptance of the LS engine in a Pontiac as if it was made that way, I think the Pontiac Hemi should be a consideration.......and a track competitor/winner among the real racers who actually win. Might give them a run for their money.

  #22  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:10 AM
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I believe Arnie Beswick did something like that^^^ Switched to a Bowtie block and ground the Chevrolet emblem into the shape of a Pontiac crest and called it a day.

IMO nothing close to running a traditional block that has Pontiac dimensions.

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  #23  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:20 PM
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I thought the Pontiac Engine was the same type of engine (made by Brodix) for Pro Stock racing that John Clegg ran for several years. The Block had a Pontiac Part Number in the books but allowed Brodix "Chevrolet" heads to be installed and run.

https://brodix.com/

I believe recently that John C said NHRA no longer allowed that engine.

8B 2000A*: 4.480 or 4.590 Bore / Standard Cam Location / 9.800 or 10.200 Deck Height

Their Heads were also cast with a Pontiac Logo like the blocks.

Tom V.

The 10.200 deck height was one of the selling points that the Block was a traditional Pontiac engine design.

,

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  #24  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:39 PM
3fastgtos 3fastgtos is offline
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Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
No offense taken at all. It is my opinion that there becomes a point, where I can't see the claim that the car, or engine, has enough original components to be called "Pontiac."

The Pontiac engine certainly has its limits and can only be competitive to a point - this was learned back in the late 1960's/early 1970's when some Pontiac racers were installing Hemi engines in an effort to be competitive AND keep up with the Hemi dominated field.

When you take something like an engine and completely redesign the block from top to bottom and simply retain those identifying features common to a factory Pontiac engine such as head bolt, oil pan, and timing cover placement, and then add a never available factory top end - well, the engine has steered so far from a factory piece that it is really not a Pontiac engine anymore than the drag racers who inserted Hemi engines in their Pontiac funny cars.

So why not simply follow the earlier racers who were unable to compete using a true Pontiac engine and went Hemi? Just carve out some Pontiac specific valve covers as the Pro Stock guys did in early 2000 and slapped them on 427 Chevy big block engines and convinced themselves and the racing community that they weren't Chevy engines, they were Pontiac engines because the name on the valve cover said so. Pontiac logo valve covers on an 811 cubic inch Hemi would be a better competitor, maybe even cheaper to build, and I am sure the racing community could be convinced that no, it's not a Chrysler Hemi, but a Pontiac Hemi because the valve covers say so. With the broad acceptance of the LS engine in a Pontiac as if it was made that way, I think the Pontiac Hemi should be a consideration.......and a track competitor/winner among the real racers who actually win. Might give them a run for their money.
Even those hemis you keep talking about have little in common with the original hemi. No brand at current power levels have many (if any) factory parts.

  #25  
Old 04-11-2021, 01:35 PM
grandam1979 grandam1979 is online now
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With thinking like that all those stroked pontiac blocks are half Chevy using rods and bearings for one. My 80 t/a came with a 305 stock is it less a Pontiac than a 79 400 car or a 06 GTO with a LS it’s not a Pontiac either? I love traditional Pontiac engines more than anyone but there’s a reason they went away in 79 out dated technology.

  #26  
Old 04-11-2021, 02:16 PM
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Vengeance Race Engines Vengeance Race Engines is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
No offense taken at all. It is my opinion that there becomes a point, where I can't see the claim that the car, or engine, has enough original components to be called "Pontiac."

The Pontiac engine certainly has its limits and can only be competitive to a point - this was learned back in the late 1960's/early 1970's when some Pontiac racers were installing Hemi engines in an effort to be competitive AND keep up with the Hemi dominated field.

When you take something like an engine and completely redesign the block from top to bottom and simply retain those identifying features common to a factory Pontiac engine such as head bolt, oil pan, and timing cover placement, and then add a never available factory top end - well, the engine has steered so far from a factory piece that it is really not a Pontiac engine anymore than the drag racers who inserted Hemi engines in their Pontiac funny cars.

So why not simply follow the earlier racers who were unable to compete using a true Pontiac engine and went Hemi? Just carve out some Pontiac specific valve covers as the Pro Stock guys did in early 2000 and slapped them on 427 Chevy big block engines and convinced themselves and the racing community that they weren't Chevy engines, they were Pontiac engines because the name on the valve cover said so. Pontiac logo valve covers on an 811 cubic inch Hemi would be a better competitor, maybe even cheaper to build, and I am sure the racing community could be convinced that no, it's not a Chrysler Hemi, but a Pontiac Hemi because the valve covers say so. With the broad acceptance of the LS engine in a Pontiac as if it was made that way, I think the Pontiac Hemi should be a consideration.......and a track competitor/winner among the real racers who actually win. Might give them a run for their money.
I get what you mean, i just don't agree with it, respectively of course. To say just because race engines DON'T use ffactory parts then it isn't a Pontiac, is just not true. Thinking inside that box only mattered when nothing else was available, or unless the rules state you have to.

In my world, engines don't get looked at as a "brand" . The parts don't know what brand they are.. it's all dimensions, sizes, parameters and math. If anything is going to dictate what brand it is, it's the block. Anything bolted to that specific brand block, is that brand. Some of us care more about making power and doing what it takes to make that power. That is how things evolve. A Big Chevy didn't come factory with Chief heads, but it's still a Chevy. It's the foundation that matters. Not what it is bolted to it.

Nobody is saying ANYTHING about calling a Chevy engine a Pontiac because it's in a Pontiac.

  #27  
Old 04-11-2021, 03:55 PM
cfmcnc cfmcnc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Stoneburg View Post
Nice power level. Not record setting but 1050 is a lot of HP.
Criteria for this build was Bracket racing,We sizes the induction tract to make peak HP at 7200RPMs keeping the usable power curve at or under 8000RPMs. Bill C.

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  #28  
Old 04-11-2021, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mysticmissle View Post
117 I think he said
117 is correct.We have other Pontiac cams done at 118-120 per application.Just for info current NHRA Pro-Stocks at 119.5-120LSA.Bill C.

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  #29  
Old 04-11-2021, 05:21 PM
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2-Stroke V8 development to the Front

  #30  
Old 04-11-2021, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cfmcnc View Post
117 is correct.We have other Pontiac cams done at 118-120 per application.Just for info current NHRA Pro-Stocks at 119.5-120LSA.Bill C.
Wow! Now that's interesting! Didn't know that Pro Stocks were that high, LSA wise.
The engine you built for this customer is similar to the one I have compression and horsepower wise. In my case we went with a 114 LSA, I may try something a little wider the next time around.

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  #31  
Old 04-20-2021, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by GTOLou View Post
Did he mention cam lsa??
117

GT

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