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Old 04-08-2021, 12:02 PM
Giffels Giffels is offline
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Angry Oil Starvation W/Canton Pan

Hopefully you guys can help me out, found a thread on here from 2015 with the same issue and no solution seems to have ever been posted.

Have a 462 stroker with a remote oil filter on the firewall, WIX 51773 filter, Tomahawk windage tray, Butler 60PSI oil pump, Canton 15-451 Pickup, and Canton 15-450 Road race pan. I neglected to measure pickup clearance when I threw it together ( i know that was stupid, figured you cant really modify the pickup anyway without cutting and welding due to how small the pickup tube is.)

Car is setup for road racing, in aggressive right hand cornering you see the oil pressure drop from 60 PSI down to 30. I always lift off the throttle and let the pressure come back up.

Pan is rated at 6 quart system capacity per canton - I have tried running it over 1 quart and still seems to starve for oil. Has anyone else had this issue with a canton pan? I have also tried some restrictor pushrods to try to suss out if I was pumping all my oil to the top end, did not seem to make any difference.

Figured I would check here before yanking the motor out again to measure the pickup - would just like to have a plan of attack before pulling it, since kind of strange it is starving for oil with this baffled/ trap door pan and the canton pickup.

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Old 04-08-2021, 12:33 PM
Navy Horn 16 Navy Horn 16 is offline
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Have you calculated the fluid volume of the piping system to and from your remote filter, and filter? Do you have an additional oil cooler?

The volume Canton says is based on a bolting it to a regular engine with OEM size filter.

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Old 04-08-2021, 12:36 PM
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Every bit of research I've done personally points to the 6 qt pan simply not being enough volume for hardcore road race stuff, especially on anything close to an R compound tire. Baffles and trap doors can only do their job if there's enough volume in the system to begin with. At the end of the day, you're still uncovering the pickup and although you didn't specifically state to this being the case, I'm assuming you see this most often on high speed sweepers?

If you're yanking the motor anyhow, I don't know if I would personally even bother with the 6qt pan. I'd go straight to the 9qt pan and I'd also plumb in an accusump.

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Old 04-08-2021, 12:50 PM
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accusump-yes. Used to be required in some classes of road racing.

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Old 04-08-2021, 12:56 PM
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3/4" Wix 51773 filter has a max flow rating of 7 - 9 GPM
13/16" Wix 51258 (AC PF24) has a max flow rating of 9 - 11 GPM

I don't know if that plays any role in your starvation issues. Just pointing out the differences between those two filters.

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Old 04-08-2021, 12:58 PM
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Swivel pick up oil pumps where not just invented just for the heck of it, but I would also go with the accusump as my first choice and you should be running a 2 Qt filter hanging off that firewall mount.

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Old 04-08-2021, 01:14 PM
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Calculating the amount of oil inside the lines to and from the remote filter and inside the filter itself is always a good idea. I use a remote mounted WIX filter that is a bit shorter than yours and found it actually holds about 3/4 quart of oil. Keep filling it until it's saturated and will take no more oil. My lines have about 1/4 quart inside them.


.

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Old 04-08-2021, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Calculating the amount of oil inside the lines to and from the remote filter and inside the filter itself is always a good idea. I use a remote mounted WIX filter that is a bit shorter than yours and found it actually holds about 3/4 quart of oil. Keep filling it until it's saturated and will take no more oil. My lines have about 1/4 quart inside them.


.
I think this is a really important point. It's not just about pan capacity here. You've really got to be looking at what it takes to fill the oil filter, the lines and even the galleys in the block.

If your oil fill consists of replacing an oil filter and topping off the pan, by the time you start the engine and prime the filter, lines, galleys, there may only be a quart or two in the pan itself.

For around the town type stuff and even some spirited driving, this typically isn't an issue, but add a sticky tire and a big, fast decreasing radius right hander into the mix and bad things start happening.

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Old 04-08-2021, 01:33 PM
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Just to comment, although Canton lists the pan as '6qt', that is the pan itself, so it should be 6+1 (for filter to fill). In some cases, another qt may be desired, so you can go 8 total, plus the remote lines requirements.

Yes on the need to calculate additional capacity for the 'added' filter system.

I have rarely ever seen a need to mod the Canton pickup, but if there's a concern, you can snake an inspection camera up there and look. The bottom brace should be no more than say an inch max from the floor of the sump. You might even be able to just look up in there thru the plug hole.

What heads are you running? You might have a drainback issue, and restricted pushrods don't help much if the drainback is bad, have seen folks complain about that with earlier E-Heads.

A 30 psi drop is a lot. Which pickup are you using, the 15-451 or the 15-401? And which pan?

Could be as simple as an oil filter, or something with the lines or fittings (restriction). Could be a drainback issue. Lastly, it could be somehow the pickup fell off.


.

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Old 04-08-2021, 01:34 PM
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Sorry, bottom brace may not be on that pickup.


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Old 04-08-2021, 01:40 PM
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When I called Canton and asked about their statement "6 qt System Capacity" I was told it was 5 quarts for the pan itself and they allowed 1 quart for a oil filter. A total of 6 quarts.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-race-pan.html


.

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Old 04-08-2021, 01:58 PM
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Yeah, I think they just went by the book. I have had a pan off the car and started dumping in qt by qt, and 6 in the sump looked right to me. I have had others talk to me about in practice, and adding a qt always seemed to work better.

I've side by side compared to a Milodon road race pan, which is 7 qt (6 + 1), and they look the same to me in sump depth etc. The GTO Milodon is an 8 qt pan. (7 + 1)

But that's my personal experience.

.

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Old 04-08-2021, 03:29 PM
Giffels Giffels is offline
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Appreciate all the feedback thus far, try to answer everything here.

Yes I have calculated the additional filter + lines, came out to about 1.5 quarts so I am currently at 7.5 quarts in the total system and have tried over filling this to be approximate 8.5 total system and still had the issue. Was highly considering upping it to 9.5 quarts and going easy on it, seems the worst that would happen is puke it out the breathers if it is over full as long as I am not hammering on it.

I will have to do more research on the filter flowing enough, I honestly never even considered that and it is quite an interesting point. Currently have a filter housing that has the 3/4 thread so may have to investigate getting another housing for the 13/16 or a higher flowing filter.

Heads are #16 heads so don't think they have the same dreaded drawback issues. Running 15-450 Pan and 15-451 pickup

In terms of the higher capacity sump, seems like the hammer head style canton is about the only one I have seen and requires modifications to my long tube headers for clearance.

does anyone out there make a dry sump for these old Pontiacs that doesn't cost $5K? Seems like dry sump would be next logical step since the accusump to me seems kind of like a bandaid

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Old 04-08-2021, 03:37 PM
Giffels Giffels is offline
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You guys could be onto something with the filter itself. Have the sheet for the pump (hopefully this attachment works). Should be spinning 1/2 speed of crank so at 5k rpm it’s pumping close to 20GPH so maybe the filter just can’t keep up?
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Old 04-08-2021, 03:47 PM
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Keep in mind that not all AN fittings are created the same, and many neck down drastically. That's especially true for what's considered 'adapters'. Many are 90 degrees, squared off, and certainly not 'full-flowing'.

For that reason, at one time when I was considering a remote filter setup, the recommended AN line and fitting size was -12. I typed that right.

There are some 'custom' solutions for dry sump, but, seriously doubt you will get under $5k.

There are some aftermarket oil pumps out there, you could increase psi & volume, it would probably help. The Titan pump is one, but have no idea what those cost anymore.

Can call BOP Engineering, believe they have made a few dry sump setups, but that certainly won't be under $5k.

I say an easy test would be to change to a different filter. If that doesn't work, add another qt, go to that 9.5 qt you calculated, see how that works.

If you still have issues, and you want to eliminate the cause potentially being the remote filter setup, go back to the OE filter housing, and don't disable the bypass.

EDIT: With large lines to the remote filter, volume becomes a concern as well.

.

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Old 04-08-2021, 03:52 PM
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A couple thoughts.

Simply adding more and more oil to the pan's capacity may result in more harm than good. At some point, even with a windage tray installed, you're filling past the point where the crank is staying out of oil. aeration is as big of a cause of oil pressure is, as uncovering the pickup. Further, the aeration of the oil may be more detrimental than just showing the lower pressure, since the air is compressible and you lose your ability to keep the crank and rods physically off of the journals.

Does this car run an oil cooler? If not, do you see this phenomenon immediately as you hit the track, or does it increase in severity as the lapping or race session continues?

I still believe this is overall a capacity issue. More oil, can hold more heat without shearing and losing viscosity. a NASCAR cup car uses gallons, not quarts of oil. Total system volume, cooling and attention to oil flow vs pressure is what keeps those engines alive at 8000+ rpm for 500 miles.

Instead of thinking about an accusump as a bandaid, think about it as adding capacity to the overall system...and it's there just in case. With your 6 quart pan, your filter and lines and now a 3 quart accusump, you've increased your system capacity by 40%.

If you're not running an external oil cooler, I'd also add that to the list.

Some years back I recall a gentleman with a red 65 (I believe) GTO that built a dry sump system using modified pans and part of a C6 z06 sump system to his traditional pontiac. I believe I recall seeing that on pro-touring.com. I don't recall how much he spent doing it, but it wouldn't surprise me if such feat done independently still isn't deep into 4 digits to get it done.

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Old 04-08-2021, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giffels View Post
You guys could be onto something with the filter itself. Have the sheet for the pump (hopefully this attachment works). Should be spinning 1/2 speed of crank so at 5k rpm it’s pumping close to 20GPH so maybe the filter just can’t keep up?
I DO A FAT FINGER TYPO occasionally so , we all know you meant 20 GPM thru the filter.

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Old 04-08-2021, 04:15 PM
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Car is not running an oil cooler, have not really had oil temp issues even in the souther summer heat but the added capacity may be worthwhile.

I see the issue immediately on track or on a spirited drive in the mountains.

I am running -10 lines and made certain to buy only the high flow earls fittings for any bends in the fittings. All of the oil filter plates I have found are 1/2 NPT so I didn’t see the need to up it to -12 since that is larger than the outlet on the motor side.

I actually used to have the old school setup with the filter up behind the headlight, suspected this could have been contributing so I shortened and mounted to the firewall. Issue obviously still persists.

And yes I agree more harm than good on too much oil, my only thought was once it’s running if the sump is indeed being run close to dry it would only be over full potentially when the car is stationary or am I thinking of this wrong?

I will also do more research into accusump. I like the idea of added capacity.

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Old 04-08-2021, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I DO A FAT FINGER TYPO occasionally so , we all know you meant 20 GPM thru the filter.

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Old 04-08-2021, 05:01 PM
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This duel 2 Qt Ford filter set up and it’s overkill flow volume is what gave me good sleep at night after adding 1 3/8” front and rear sway bars and massively wider tires and poly Bushings.
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