#1  
Old 12-31-2019, 10:54 AM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,122
Default On the subframe connector fence

72 Firebird, in restoration process....I have global west rear weld and front bolt in connectors.

I want to use the poly graphite bushings. anyone experienced with the polys and subframe connectors?

I have done the search and read all the comments on solids with connectors. in the global west instructions, they actually state poly can be used. (I have the poly kit)

here's my spin.... the car will be driven as a hobby car....couple times a week for pleasure cruising. I don't see any "weld breaking & twisting " issues driving it like this? I would think only a daily driver and hard track use would make subframe and poly bushings a bad choice?

  #2  
Old 12-31-2019, 11:29 AM
JLMounce JLMounce is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

It'll probably be fine, especially if global west themselves are stating the use of a poly body bushing is okay. Solid is better of course, but for your intended use, I don't see an issue.

I didn't know people still made graphite impregnated poly bushings. Those went out of favor pretty quickly as people started discovering that the graphite ate away at the urethane leading to shortened service life.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #3  
Old 12-31-2019, 12:37 PM
leeklm's Avatar
leeklm leeklm is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 1,747
Default

This is a question, not a statement... how is it any different than running poly bushings on a full frame car? Is the concern surrounding the weld on the subframe connector? I run poly bushings in my 68, and have an old school subframe connector that was welded in along with a 6pt cage. Only been running this way for 1 season and nothing broke.... yet.

The car rode & vibrated so dang bad with aluminum body bushings I had to try something different. Also found a driveshaft vibration that was causing some of the issue- so probably not as much difference between the bushings as I was looking for.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

__________________
68 Firebird-- Street/Strip - 400/461 Eagle Forged Bottom End & Ross Flat top pistons. KRE 325 CFM D port, Ultradyne 263/271 @.050, .4267 lift. Crower Solid roller lifters and 1.65 stainless rockers. Quickfuel 1000 on Torker2 intake and 2" open spacer. Hedman 1.75" headers. TH400 w/brake. Ford 9" w/3.80 gears & 28x9 Hoosier pro bracket drag radial. Best ET: 1.35 60ft, 6.29 @ 107.20 mph, 9.99 @132.33 mph. 3,300 race weight
  #4  
Old 12-31-2019, 01:28 PM
Scott65's Avatar
Scott65 Scott65 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,991
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
It'll probably be fine, especially if global west themselves are stating the use of a poly body bushing is okay. Solid is better of course, but for your intended use, I don't see an issue.

I didn't know people still made graphite impregnated poly bushings. Those went out of favor pretty quickly as people started discovering that the graphite ate away at the urethane leading to shortened service life.
This^
I used poly graphite bushings once with terrible results. This was not in a body mount application, but they didn't hold up well at all.

__________________
'65 Tempest 467 3650# 11.30@120.31
  #5  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:04 PM
RocktimusPryme's Avatar
RocktimusPryme RocktimusPryme is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bedford, IN
Posts: 2,166
Default

Not your exact scenario, but I recently installed bolt on Alston connectors and I have the Energy urethane body bushings. They are installed but only with one bolt in the front because one of the bolts on both sides would have contacted the bushing. I assume because the urethane didn't compress as much as rubber. So with yours being weld in, its probably fine no matter what.

__________________
1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs
1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455
Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports
https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports
  #6  
Old 12-31-2019, 02:07 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeklm View Post
This is a question, not a statement... how is it any different than running poly bushings on a full frame car? Is the concern surrounding the weld on the subframe connector? I run poly bushings in my 68, and have an old school subframe connector that was welded in along with a 6pt cage. Only been running this way for 1 season and nothing broke.... yet.

The car rode & vibrated so dang bad with aluminum body bushings I had to try something different. Also found a driveshaft vibration that was causing some of the issue- so probably not as much difference between the bushings as I was looking for.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
On a full frame car, the frame is providing all of the support and the body is just set atop it. The birds are a different story as they have a partial integrated frame and a front clip that is not permanently attached.

The issue arises due to flexing between the body and the sub-frame. In stock form this isn't an issue because the sub-frame is not directly connected to the rear uni-body structure. When you add sub-frame connectors, you are now tying that front sub-frame to the unitized chassis in the rear and any flex the body seas now translates to the front sub-frame.

Without solid bushings (or much harder material than rubber) what happens is that as the rear of the car flexes and twists, it will tend to crack the welds of the subframe connectors at the subframe itself. In the case of bolt in style connectors, it will tend to elongate the holes, then you get no benefit from the connectors and likely add a whole bunch of NVH.

In regards to the NVH issue, the solid mounts will transmit anything occurring on the subframe through the body, where the poly and rubber will tend to isolate that. The key there however is that the solid bushing itself does not inherently create NVH. That is happening somewhere else in the car.

If the car has good bushings in the suspension, doesn't have loose body components and is in otherwise sound operation, there should not be an increase in NVH by going to a solid bushing.

To use an example, most modern cars have unitized chassis with no isolation between the frame and the body. Most high end fist gen f-body builds (other than faithful restorations) are being done with the subframe welded straight to the body without the use of bushings at all. These cars don't suffer from NVH issues.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #7  
Old 12-31-2019, 03:20 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE3 View Post
72 Firebird, in restoration process....I have global west rear weld and front bolt in connectors.

I want to use the poly graphite bushings. anyone experienced with the polys and subframe connectors?

I have done the search and read all the comments on solids with connectors. in the global west instructions, they actually state poly can be used. (I have the poly kit)

here's my spin.... the car will be driven as a hobby car....couple times a week for pleasure cruising. I don't see any "weld breaking & twisting " issues driving it like this? I would think only a daily driver and hard track use would make subframe and poly bushings a bad choice?
im running PTFB connectors on my 72 bird & energy suspension poly body bushings. welded at the rear & bolted at the front in case i need to remove the subframe etc. PTFB also states poly are fine to use but solid are better, especially if fully welded.

mine is mostly a street car but sees quite a bit of test & tunes each year, running low 11's & never had any issues with the bushings or connectors.

  #8  
Old 12-31-2019, 05:12 PM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,122
Default

reason i'm on the fence to, is because i'm about to remove the front clip for final gap fitment and body/paint so if I use them I figure I best fit the clip with whatever bushings i'm going to use.

kinda frustrated with the idea of em, and close to not even using them. I want an "improvement" overall in the car and the ride and definitely not a regret and rough ride.

I had a brand new 1980 TransAm back in the day. I remember that the car seemed to flex all over the place especially noticing the front fenders. so my thinking is the subframe connectors will make it more like a full frame car?

And i'm not after a tight road race hard cornering capable car at all. just wanting to make improvements to the car over stock. I have rubber bushings in the front control arms, rubber in the rear leaf's and leaving rubber on the core support. no desire to "tighten" it up a bunch for "handling". (I prefer the quarter mile)

i'm after a ride improvement and less stress to the rest of the car ie; flexing 1980 TransAm. am I thinking wrong here? ugh

  #9  
Old 12-31-2019, 05:31 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE3 View Post
reason i'm on the fence to, is because i'm about to remove the front clip for final gap fitment and body/paint so if I use them I figure I best fit the clip with whatever bushings i'm going to use.

kinda frustrated with the idea of em, and close to not even using them. I want an "improvement" overall in the car and the ride and definitely not a regret and rough ride.

I had a brand new 1980 TransAm back in the day. I remember that the car seemed to flex all over the place especially noticing the front fenders. so my thinking is the subframe connectors will make it more like a full frame car?

And i'm not after a tight road race hard cornering capable car at all. just wanting to make improvements to the car over stock. I have rubber bushings in the front control arms, rubber in the rear leaf's and leaving rubber on the core support. no desire to "tighten" it up a bunch for "handling". (I prefer the quarter mile)

i'm after a ride improvement and less stress to the rest of the car ie; flexing 1980 TransAm. am I thinking wrong here? ugh
Those are all the exact reasons you want subframe connectors to begin with. Aiding in chassis rigidity allows the suspension to spend it's time soaking up the road and not dealing with a sloppy chassis. That added stiffness provides better traction and handling while also helping to keep things like creeks, squeaks and rattles at bay.

Little known trivia fact, but the second gen f-body's subframe is actually less stiff torsionally than the first gen subframe is.

Getting back to the examples I laid out in my previous post. What you're after is almost exactly why you want a solid body mount instead of poly or rubber mount. Getting that chassis as stiff as you can allows you to better dial in the rest of the car and get it sounding and feeling better put together.

Ask the SN95 and New Edge mustang owners about the difference in ride quality, and rattle reduction they see from a set of weld-in subframe connectors. I've had several of these cars in the past and subframe connectors are the first thing a lot of people do to those cars. The same concept applies on our first gen birds.

With new bushings in the suspension, new joints in the steering, properly hung fenders, hood and all the rubber seals etc. the car should not feel, ride or sound any harsher than with rubber or polly mounts. If you've already got the polly mounts, use them. If you don't have mounts yet, I'd really suggest solids and if you're worried about it, cut some thin rubber rings to mount between the body and frame. you'll get 98% of the stiffness while also providing some isolation.

Like you state, now is definitely the time to do this.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #10  
Old 12-31-2019, 06:39 PM
'ol Pinion head 'ol Pinion head is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: INJUN Territory, Red State Merica!
Posts: 9,567
Default

early 80's in my modded '80 Turbo SE, I installed bolt-in subs with the stock WS6 bushings, that was '82. Little later changed over to alum Herb Adams spacers w thin rubber covers. The Herb alum spacers moved the subframe closer to the body & required trimming an extra fan shroud @ the top for fan clearance... never liked that. Later, after cracking the T-bar of the roof, for the second time, had a new roof skin installed & had local chassis shop install custom weld-in subs. There def was more road noise emanating from the chassis once I went with the VSE solid alum spacers between the subframe & body. I'd taken my stereo setup out by that time & put the original radio block off plate back in. I didn't mind the additional noise esp with deleted restictive resonators & deleted cat. Always had a Sony Walkman laying in the glovebox back then. when a girlfriend had to have music riding in the T/A, it was Walkman time.

__________________
Buzzards gotta eat... same as worms.
  #11  
Old 12-31-2019, 07:04 PM
leeklm's Avatar
leeklm leeklm is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 1,747
Default

Good points. I still have the aluminum bushings, which may go back in one of these days. The energy suspension poly bushings are pretty stiff, and lift the body up just a little, which is nice.

Doing the body now with front clip off, so would be the time to do it!!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

__________________
68 Firebird-- Street/Strip - 400/461 Eagle Forged Bottom End & Ross Flat top pistons. KRE 325 CFM D port, Ultradyne 263/271 @.050, .4267 lift. Crower Solid roller lifters and 1.65 stainless rockers. Quickfuel 1000 on Torker2 intake and 2" open spacer. Hedman 1.75" headers. TH400 w/brake. Ford 9" w/3.80 gears & 28x9 Hoosier pro bracket drag radial. Best ET: 1.35 60ft, 6.29 @ 107.20 mph, 9.99 @132.33 mph. 3,300 race weight
  #12  
Old 12-31-2019, 08:27 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeklm View Post
Good points. I still have the aluminum bushings, which may go back in one of these days. The energy suspension poly bushings are pretty stiff, and lift the body up just a little, which is nice.

Doing the body now with front clip off, so would be the time to do it!!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
poly bushings are basically solid just not as durable as aluminum, they dont really compress or if so very very little. for fully welded in connectors & drag or auto-x racing then use the alum solid bushings due to the added stress.

but if the car is mostly a street cruiser, the polys will work perfectly fine. & if it does see some light racing they will be ok too... i've been drag racing mine for 5+ years & drive it pretty hard on the street & the bushings look & function like new still. i also have rubber bushings on the control arms & rear leafs.

  #13  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:52 AM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,122
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme View Post
Not your exact scenario, but I recently installed bolt on Alston connectors and I have the Energy urethane body bushings. They are installed but only with one bolt in the front because one of the bolts on both sides would have contacted the bushing. I assume because the urethane didn't compress as much as rubber. So with yours being weld in, its probably fine no matter what.
Very good point. I need to check this first. the global west weld in at the rear location only, bolt in the front and you drill holes in the side for the additional front bolts.

the aluminum bushings they provide are smaller, could very well be its to clear the side bolts. could weld the front anyway but I don't want that.

this much I know, if I run into that trying to use the polys i'll let em collect dust and maybe do a mod well down the road and put em on. one reason I wanted to do em now was I don't have the fuel tank and line in. hate the idea of welding anywhere near fuel. probably no need to feel like that, i'm carefull. always wondered how the muffler shop guys don't seem bothered at all throwing weld sparks around ha.

I got lulled into the gw connector install looking very easy. but their video showed the car on a nice 4 post lift, and no engine or trans in the car used. big difference. I briefly tried to install them but after fighting alignment I didn't want to waste anymore time having more important restoration items to address.

  #14  
Old 01-02-2020, 03:04 PM
RocktimusPryme's Avatar
RocktimusPryme RocktimusPryme is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bedford, IN
Posts: 2,166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE3 View Post
Very good point. I need to check this first. the global west weld in at the rear location only, bolt in the front and you drill holes in the side for the additional front bolts.

the aluminum bushings they provide are smaller, could very well be its to clear the side bolts. could weld the front anyway but I don't want that.

this much I know, if I run into that trying to use the polys i'll let em collect dust and maybe do a mod well down the road and put em on. one reason I wanted to do em now was I don't have the fuel tank and line in. hate the idea of welding anywhere near fuel. probably no need to feel like that, i'm carefull. always wondered how the muffler shop guys don't seem bothered at all throwing weld sparks around ha.

I got lulled into the gw connector install looking very easy. but their video showed the car on a nice 4 post lift, and no engine or trans in the car used. big difference. I briefly tried to install them but after fighting alignment I didn't want to waste anymore time having more important restoration items to address.
The Alston ones were pretty darn easy. The only issue I had was having to drop the exhaust, and wishing I would have bought more than one drill bit. They dull quickly.
Also the aforementioned issue of not being able to get both bolts into the front. I too, didn't want to hard weld them in. What I think Im going to do is compromise and put several spot welds on in addition to the single bolt. That way it gets some more structural strength to make up for the missing bolt, but should be that had to chisel off if I ever need to.

__________________
1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs
1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455
Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports
https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:53 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017