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Old 11-01-2019, 04:45 PM
Red Box Rebel Red Box Rebel is offline
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Angry Turn Signal Problems

Calling All Electrical Geniuses

1968 GTO

When the engine is running or when the key is on, engine off, I have a problem with the turn signals.

Light switch completely in off position, engine running: The turn signal lights up the parking light element for both bulbs and blinks very quickly. The dash indicators light up, but the "Gen Light" flashes on and off in sync with the dash indicator, the rear tail light (NOT SIGNAL OR STOP ELEMENT) and the front amber marker element (NOT THE FLASHER/TURN SIGNAL ELEMENT).

When the parking lights are turned on, or the headlights are turned on, you cannot see the front or rear signals flashing at all.

The turn signal switch is turning on the tail and parking light elements of the two element bulbs, but not the correct stop/flasher/turn signal elements for the front and rear.

Both right and left have exact same problem.

The hazard flasher works correctly.

I replaced the turn signal flasher unit with a new one from AMES, but the problem was not corrected.

I swapped the known good hazard flasher (located on steering column) with the turn signal flasher, but the problem remained the same.

The new flasher unit from AMES did however, flash at a faster rate than the original Hazard unit. Otherwise, no difference in flasher locations or result with turn signals.

Can the problem be in the turn signal switch in the steering column? Or is the problem somewhere else.

Tail lamps work as required, stop lamps work correctly and hazard flasher works correctly.

Totally stumped and do not want to pull the steering wheel to change the turn signal switch unless I know that it is the problem.

Anyone encounter this problem in the past? What was the solution?

Any help and/or advice is greatly appreciated.

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Old 11-01-2019, 05:02 PM
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Without analyzing your observations, the first thing to do is to check that there is a good ground at each light position and the ground connections (metal parts, etc. ) are connected to the battery negative, (i.e. all ground straps are good).

Check to make sure that the proper bulbs are in the sockets, i.e. a single contact bulb is not in a double contact socket.

Those are the most common causes of lights being weird.

The next place to check would of course, be a funky turn/hazard switch.

george

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Old 11-01-2019, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george kujanski View Post
Without analyzing your observations, the first thing to do is to check that there is a good ground at each light position and the ground connections (metal parts, etc. ) are connected to the battery negative, (i.e. all ground straps are good).

Check to make sure that the proper bulbs are in the sockets, i.e. a single contact bulb is not in a double contact socket.

Those are the most common causes of lights being weird.

The next place to check would of course, be a funky turn/hazard switch.

george

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The bulbs are all new and connections are all good and the grounds are all good. I wish it was that easy, but thank you!

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Old 11-01-2019, 05:28 PM
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From personal experience I had a similar problem and found that the locating nubs on the Chinese bulbs are not as prominent as those from 20-30 years ago and its easy to install them 180* out. Try rotating the bulbs or verify they are in correctly and see what happens.
I would also check the instrument panel grounds.

European bulb manufacturers still make a decent bulb. Hella is one of the better bands. If you can't find Hellas take a trip out to your local Pick-a-Part and grab about 10-15 bulbs from older model cars. I have a baggie full of bulbs I harvested and it only cost $2.50. Just take a good look at the filaments to make sure they're still good.

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Old 11-01-2019, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by OG68 View Post
From personal experience I had a similar problem and found that the locating nubs on the Chinese bulbs are not as prominent as those from 20-30 years ago and its easy to install them 180* out. Try rotating the bulbs or verify they are in correctly and see what happens.
I would also check the instrument panel grounds.

European bulb manufacturers still make a decent bulb. Hella is one of the better bands. If you can't find Hellas take a trip out to your local Pick-a-Part and grab about 10-15 bulbs from older model cars. I have a baggie full of bulbs I harvested and it only cost $2.50. Just take a good look at the filaments to make sure they're still good.
Thanks

Will check them all again.

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Old 11-02-2019, 12:23 PM
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"Light switch completely in off position, engine running: The turn signal lights up the parking light element for both bulbs and blinks very quickly"

I'd say since the parking light circuit is separate from the turn/brake/hazard circuits except at the bulbs, there's something funny there, or at the bulkhead connector light harness, at least that's how my '67 is wired.

George

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Old 11-02-2019, 12:35 PM
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On '68 GTOs the front parking lamp and TS housings are prone to rust.

The plug in for the wiring also can get moisture inside of it and corrode the touch points on those tabs.

I would also check to make sure that the core support is grounded to both front headlamps as that is also a problem area. The wiring harness has built-in black wires in it for the headlamp grounds (one each per side).

Also check your taillamp housings, those have ground straps on the back of them that translate ground from the bulbs to the rear bumper. Then the bumper mounting brackets transfer that into the frame. Underneath the hood on the right front frame rail (at the top) you should see a short braided copper ground strap that transfers ground from the frame into the right front (black painted) wheel housing.


One think to keep in mind when trouble shooting anything electrical on a car, electricity will always seek the path of least resistance. A good 12 volt non-powered test lamp is one of best tools. These cars were not meant to last forever so things will happen to them in regards to rust and corrosion especially in places that never see the daylight or heat from the sun.

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Old 11-02-2019, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Serio View Post
On '68 GTOs the front parking lamp and TS housings are prone to rust.

The plug in for the wiring also can get moisture inside of it and corrode the touch points on those tabs.

I would also check to make sure that the core support is grounded to both front headlamps as that is also a problem area. The wiring harness has built-in black wires in it for the headlamp grounds (one each per side).

Also check your taillamp housings, those have ground straps on the back of them that translate ground from the bulbs to the rear bumper. Then the bumper mounting brackets transfer that into the frame. Underneath the hood on the right front frame rail (at the top) you should see a short braided copper ground strap that transfers ground from the frame into the right front (black painted) wheel housing.


One think to keep in mind when trouble shooting anything electrical on a car, electricity will always seek the path of least resistance. A good 12 volt non-powered test lamp is one of best tools. These cars were not meant to last forever so things will happen to them in regards to rust and corrosion especially in places that never see the daylight or heat from the sun.
I do not disagree with anything you have posted. However see below:

The bulbs are all seated correctly and grounded because the tail and parking lights come on with the correct element of the two element bulb. While on, the "hazard flasher" lights up the correct element which can be seen flashing on and off while the tail and parking elements remain illuminated. This is true for all six bulbs, two in front for parking lights and four in back for the tail lights.

The tail and parking lamp circuits are working correctly with the correct elements of the two element bulbs lighting at the correct times,

The Stop and Hazard light circuits are also working correctly with the correct Brighter Elements lighting up at the correct times.

What makes no sense, is that the turn signal switch, when activating either the right or left turn signals, lights up the parking and tail lamp elements instead of the Stop, Hazard and Turn signal elements of the respective two element bulbs.

In addition to lighting up the wrong element of the two element bulb, the dash idiot light, that says "GEN," flashes on and off in sync with the flasher unit lighting up the incorrect parking and tail elements of the two element bulbs.

I do not believe the problem is with the bulbs, sockets or grounds. All have been checked and the grounds at the tail have been recently cleaned and reinstalled when replacing the tail light housing assemblies. If they were bad , then I would not have stop, hazard or tail lamps working correctly. The same is true of the front parking/hazard lamps. Both right and left work correctly.

I can only guess that the problem is in the either turn signal switch or the nine (9) pin connector on the steering column. In order to access the turn signal switch, I would have to pull the steering wheel. I am trying to avoid that, but will if someone can confirm my suspicions. Assuming that is possible.

The problem may lie somewhere else, but that is why I am seeking help.

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Old 11-02-2019, 04:05 PM
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Looks like you've covered all the bases but I noticed you didn't mention the dash. The 68 dash has a series of metal grounding brackets behind all the switches and the gauge housing. All of which must be tight or strange things happen.

It's not unusual to have a signal switch to go bad and it may be the problem, but for the 67-68 columns its a major undertaking to replace. Easier to double check everything else first. If you do buy a new switch test it first outside the column before tearing everything apart. I highly recommend using the service manual for guidance when replacing the switch. Its not as simple as disconnect and remove. Lots of steps involved that must be followed or the column will not go back together correctly.

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Old 11-02-2019, 04:15 PM
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All the dash ground straps/brackets are good and are tight.

Major undertaking is right. That is why I am trying to avoid that job.

Thank you

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Old 11-02-2019, 04:40 PM
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Default Dash Grounds 68 GTO

One more thing you might consider; have you checked the printed circuit at the back of the gauge housing? Those go bad when they get old and they will peel apart. The "GEN" lamp flashing on & off is a sign that the current is seeking a path to ground of least resistance. There are a pair of turn signal tell tails in the dash which are routed thru the printed circuit also double check your ground straps behind the plastic dash bezel.

There are 2 places of copper "footprints" in the PC that have small 1/4" hex head screws overlapping the copper into the steel of the gauge housing. Those 2 screws transfer ground from your PC into the housing. The housing then transfers that over to the LH side lower ground strap and onto the painted tab of the interior dash lower cowl.

The point of contact to the car's body is the short one on the LH side right below the wiper switch. There is a threaded stud in the bezel that sandwiches that ground strap onto what is a painted part of the cowl which forms the lower part of the dash. You should sand off the paint on that one area so the ground strap has a nice clean patch of bright metal.
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Old 11-02-2019, 04:50 PM
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What makes no sense, is that the turn signal switch, when activating either the right or left turn signals, lights up the parking and tail lamp elements instead of the Stop, Hazard and Turn signal elements of the respective two element bulbs.
Front and back bulbs are the single element on/flashing?
(and on correct side of turn signal lever position)

What happens when brake pedal is pushed when turn signal is on?

Generally any time the gen light blinks with the turn signal, it is almost always a bad ground connection somewhere?

Try taking one of the bulbs out of the socket on the side you have the turn signal working.
(front and back and do every one)



Which rear tail light sockets does the car use?
(they had a change sometime in the year)


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Old 11-02-2019, 10:50 PM
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Angry Still have not found the cause of the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnta1 View Post
Front and back bulbs are the single element on/flashing?
(and on correct side of turn signal lever position)

What happens when brake pedal is pushed when turn signal is on?

Generally any time the gen light blinks with the turn signal, it is almost always a bad ground connection somewhere?

Try taking one of the bulbs out of the socket on the side you have the turn signal working.
(front and back and do every one)



Which rear tail light sockets does the car use?
(they had a change sometime in the year)

With regards to your question "which rear tail light sockets . . .?" I have replaced the originals with ones bought from AMES. They were replaced for other reasons. The turn signal problem pre-existed the tail light assembly replacements.

Have taken every suggestion except taking out one bulb.

All grounds good at ALL locations inside and outside.
The ground strap that sits just below the windshield wiper switch was examined and checked. It is perfect. I even took a separate ground wire and attached to the ground straps and ran that wire to a known good ground.
Results were the same.

The grounds at each front parking/turn signal are okay and there was no rust inside the sockets.

The rears are all brand new.
Everything lights up properly, except the turn signal lights up the wrong element of all three bulbs when activated.

So far, nothing has worked to determine what the problem is and what is required to fix the problem. I am leaning toward the switch and/or the 9 pin connector, but would like to know how to prove it before taking out the switch and replacing it with a new one. At this point I do not know if it is a Delco Switch or not. It is the original, but not sure which one GM used.

Still need everyone's help.


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Old 11-03-2019, 04:18 PM
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Replacing original GM parts with new reproduction parts is not always a guarantee that the new parts are good.

That said you have 2 ways you can go here, one is to step by step break down the wiring into sections, thereby eliminating the source of the problem until you arrive on the problem area; that at least that narrows it down to a smaller size footprint on your car. Or 2) find an NOS GM turn signal switch and un-plug the old one underneath the dash and plug in the new one first to try that & see if that solves your problem. By your descriptions I believe that you may have 2 problems or more, one you seem to have a ground back-feed issue where the current is not going to where is should but instead is finding the shortest pathway to ground which is to say the path of least resistance. Or you may have the wrong bulb in the wrong socket as those 1157 bulbs have twin filaments with a common ground. Or you may have a socket made improperly or one installed in the wrong location as the 68 GTO tailamps have a pair of regular lights, + your brake lights plus back-up lights combined all sharing the same ground; and all in one housing. (Each per side.) The back-up bulbs are, I believe 1156s.

Please keep us posted as to what you find, you may need to take your car to a restoration shop that specializes in GM car electrical problems as this one is most likely not going to be easy to find. Turn signal switches go bad over time, they will not last forever so replacing one of those just as a precaution is never a bad idea. I would recommend an original GM switch if you can find one. Some of these modern made in China reproduction switches will not last a year. That is if they work at all from the beginning.

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Old 11-03-2019, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Serio View Post
Replacing original GM parts with new reproduction parts is not always a guarantee that the new parts are good.

That said you have 2 ways you can go here, one is to step by step break down the wiring into sections, thereby eliminating the source of the problem until you arrive on the problem area; that at least that narrows it down to a smaller size footprint on your car. Or 2) find an NOS GM turn signal switch and un-plug the old one underneath the dash and plug in the new one first to try that & see if that solves your problem. By your descriptions I believe that you may have 2 problems or more, one you seem to have a ground back-feed issue where the current is not going to where is should but instead is finding the shortest pathway to ground which is to say the path of least resistance. Or you may have the wrong bulb in the wrong socket as those 1157 bulbs have twin filaments with a common ground. Or you may have a socket made improperly or one installed in the wrong location as the 68 GTO tailamps have a pair of regular lights, + your brake lights plus back-up lights combined all sharing the same ground; and all in one housing. (Each per side.) The back-up bulbs are, I believe 1156s.

Please keep us posted as to what you find, you may need to take your car to a restoration shop that specializes in GM car electrical problems as this one is most likely not going to be easy to find. Turn signal switches go bad over time, they will not last forever so replacing one of those just as a precaution is never a bad idea. I would recommend an original GM switch if you can find one. Some of these modern made in China reproduction switches will not last a year. That is if they work at all from the beginning.
Thank you for your response.

The bulbs are all good. The bulbs are ALL the correct bulbs at all six locations. The sockets are all good. They are original in front and replacement from AMES in the rear. But, as I stated earlier, the problem started BEFORE replacing the rear housing assemblies. They were replaced because they were very dull and did not reflect enough light and one of four sockets for the tail, stop, hazard, turn signal bulbs lost its spring tension, otherwise they worked just fine.

The grounds at the sockets are all good. The ground strap under the dash is good.

If I need a new switch, how can I determine that the original switch and/or the switch wiring and 9 pin connector is actually the problem?

No one has experienced this problem?

I do not mind buying a new one, but it would require removing the steering wheel and the switch. According to AMES, you must identify the switch and choose between two different switches.
Is there a way to test the switch before removing it?

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Old 11-03-2019, 05:49 PM
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I would just buy a new switch anyway. After 50 years the original switch plastic has seen a lot of cycles and its just a matter of time before it fails.
There are two basic type of switches for the 68. Boyne and Delco. One way to tell the difference without pulling the wheel is from the hazard pull switch base. Boyne switches have a round base, Delco a D or doghouse shape. They are not interchangeable.
Some of the new Delco switches require an adapter to work with the original 9 pin connector.

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Old 11-03-2019, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OG68 View Post
I would just buy a new switch anyway. After 50 years the original switch plastic has seen a lot of cycles and its just a matter of time before it fails.
There are two basic type of switches for the 68. Boyne and Delco. One way to tell the difference without pulling the wheel is from the hazard pull switch base. Boyne switches have a round base, Delco a D or doghouse shape. They are not interchangeable.
Some of the new Delco switches require an adapter to work with the original 9 pin connector.
Looks like it is a Delco as it appears to be white and a "Doghouse" shape where the Hazard switch comes out of the hole in the column.

I do not disagree that a new switch is not a bad idea, but still want to know how to prove the original one is bad or good without removing the switch.

Thank you

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Old 11-03-2019, 08:23 PM
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Try a new one and that will tell you, these parts are not made to last forever, what OG68 says.

There no way to prove a 50+ year old switch is bad but it probably needs replaced. There is no Kent Moore "tester" that I know of to test a turn signal switch. It is either good or bad, most of them are junk by now.


Like I said before, I would plug the new switch in first BEFORE you take apart the column to verify any improvement.

Another issue which could be the problem is your printed circuit has gone bad behind the dash cluster and one of the 12 volt + signals that light up the green arrow tell-tails are shorting out. It will not show up as a direct short because there is a flasher in the 12 volt + side of the circuit. That or you have lost your ground at the dash or thru the PC. GM used the steel gauge housing as a ground and I have seen some of those housings that are pretty rusted. Enough to block or partially block the ground path. Then the current goes thru you "GEN" light to get to ground. I would pull the dash and inspect the printed circuit. Those need replaced at the 50 year mark as well.

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Old 11-03-2019, 08:45 PM
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If you want to get a schematic and find which wires in your 9 wire harness need to be connected to make the system work and make jumper wires to take the place of the switch contacts you could operate the system with the switch disconnected proving what you're asking for.

In my own experience a turn signal system that flashes rapidly usually has a short in a power wire going to ground. The flasher acts like a circuit breaker and the higher the electrical load the faster it reacts. If you've ever connected a trailer harness into a light duty flasher, the extra load of the added bulbs causes the flasher to flash more quickly, than when the extra load isn't there. A shorted wire between the switch and the socket will cause the symptom you're describing.

Myself I'd be looking for a pinched/bare wire by using a hot test light with all the bulbs removed. By probing the wires of the plug going to each turn signal with all the bulbs removed you should have no test light when probing the open circuits at the plug. Without looking at a schematic I would also assume you can probe the wires going to the switch to check for a short in the column, with the switch in the neutral position.

You can trace all the wires from the sockets back to the plug, but having a schematic for the car you're working on is much easier especially if the wires change colors where there are connectors in the system.

That's how I'd check the system, feel free to do whatever you think works for you.

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Old 11-04-2019, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
If you want to get a schematic and find which wires in your 9 wire harness need to be connected to make the system work and make jumper wires to take the place of the switch contacts you could operate the system with the switch disconnected proving what you're asking for.

In my own experience a turn signal system that flashes rapidly usually has a short in a power wire going to ground. The flasher acts like a circuit breaker and the higher the electrical load the faster it reacts. If you've ever connected a trailer harness into a light duty flasher, the extra load of the added bulbs causes the flasher to flash more quickly, than when the extra load isn't there. A shorted wire between the switch and the socket will cause the symptom you're describing.

Myself I'd be looking for a pinched/bare wire by using a hot test light with all the bulbs removed. By probing the wires of the plug going to each turn signal with all the bulbs removed you should have no test light when probing the open circuits at the plug. Without looking at a schematic I would also assume you can probe the wires going to the switch to check for a short in the column, with the switch in the neutral position.

You can trace all the wires from the sockets back to the plug, but having a schematic for the car you're working on is much easier especially if the wires change colors where there are connectors in the system.

That's how I'd check the system, feel free to do whatever you think works for you.
Good answer. Will try it. I have several color schematics of the entire wiring system.

May a while to prove it all up. Thank you

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