[maxepr]

Originally Posted by tom s

I have seen 69 auto TAs with 62 heads.Tom

My 69 T/A auto has 62 heads.

[thews]

Originally Posted by necdb3

I own a 69 T/A auto and a 69 400 4spd firebird conv. Both cars came with 62 heads from the factory.

I find it very curious that your 4 speed car has #62's (like my 400 did). I've seen a lot of cars in junkyards back in the 80's. Back then you'd see GTO's in Pick-A-Part. Every head was about $50, fender was $25 and the hoods were about $30 (still have a couple). The 69 GTO's were far more plentiful than the Firebirds. The 4-speed GTO's almost all had #48's. The 70's GTO's were always #12 for the stick and #13 for the automatics. My 69 350 HO 4-speed engine has #48's, but all the 350 HO's did. It's interesting why the 4-speed 69 Firebird 400's got the #62's?

[rdl]

I’ve posted this before, but I’ll repeat it here. These discussions often talk about transmissions being paired with camshafts. The fact is that engines were built on their own. It seems that in 1969 400 Firebirds, the 62 head was paired with the 067 cam; the 48 head was paired with the 068 cam. Transmissions, differentials, and other features would then be paired to the engine as designed and made available.

[thews]

Originally Posted by rdl

I’ve posted this before, but I’ll repeat it here. These discussions often talk about transmissions being paired with camshafts. The fact is that engines were built on their own. It seems that in 1969 400 Firebirds, the 62 head was paired with the 067 cam; the 48 head was paired with the 068 cam. Transmissions, differentials, and other features would then be paired to the engine as designed and made available.

That's interesting and the first I've heard that. Is there a reason? I've always heard the #62 and #48 were exactly the same in the combustion chamber. I have 2 sets of #48's and 1 set of #62's and the combustion chambers looks exactly the same. I can't imagine the factory would create a special head for 1cc less volume and they are both listed as 72cc in the literature I have.

There was a rumor that the 69 #48 350HO heads were "shaved" at the factory to raise the compression of the 350, but everything I've read states a #48 is a #48 and that's not true. The #62 were big car heads because they all had automatics. I remember passing on a lot of #62's at Pick-A-Part because so many Grand Prix's had them.

[rdl]

It’s a much longer discussion. If you read Rocky Rotella’s book, it’s touched on in there with acknowledgment that there is currently no definitive PMD documentation to support a conclusion. The 62 head is generally measured as having a ~75cc chamber, matched to the 067 cam that builds more cylinder pressure. The 48 head generally measures ~72cc in the chamber, matched to the 068 cam that bleeds some of the increased squeeze pressure in exchange for increased upper range performance. The issue of the 48 head spec’s on the 350 H.O. remains unresolved.

[bsuburban]

I have an early production (sept 67) 1968 Firebird all numbers matching 400HO
4sp.
WQ block with VIN stamp
216 heads (weird i know)
S 068 camshaft
It runs fine on CA pump 91 gas but better if mixed with 100 octane. The vapor lock deal is much worse with ethanol fuel, does not matter what compression you have. the lower boiling point of the fuel with carburetion sucks.

[justincampbell]

Originally Posted by bsuburban

The vapor lock deal is much worse with ethanol fuel, does not matter what compression you have. the lower boiling point of the fuel with carburetion sucks.

Anybody else care to weigh in on this?

I don't claim to know it all. But, I can tell you about personal experience. May have been some other factor that I didn't note? All I can tell you is what I observed.

Every old car I have ever owned has been carbureted and 10:1 or less(mostly less) compression. I run premium in all my old cars and only had a vapor lock issue in one car(previous owner installed headers but failed to reroute the fuel line). My family member has a 1967 Firebird 400 currently with a '68 factory fitted block, the rest are the original '67 parts. To the best of my knowledge, this is 10.5:1 compression. On premium fuel, the car has had vapor lock issues a bunch of times. Not sure if it has happened since they started mixing in 104 octane race gas.

[D. Rustin]

I have the exact same car ur looking at 400 ho 4speed 3:36 gears
I run premium fuel I have never had a detonation or fuel lock issue.
Don’t be afraid to buy it

[PONTIAC LARRY]

93 octane , a 160 Robert Shaw T-Stat Stock curve in distributer and timing etc. Should be fine,,, Keep the quick advance curve and best total timing and put a can of Torco Accelerator in it to a tank of Super. It works ...

[justincampbell]

Thanks for the feedback.

FYI I am probably going to pass on the car just because of the interior color. I thought I could overlook that because everything else about the car was the "right stuff". But, every time I look at the interior pictures, it just makes me sick. It is a terrible kind of goldish greenish. I suppose I could change the interior to black. But, that seems downright stupid to alter such a correct and desirable car.

[will slow gto]

If everything else about the car screams, “yes!” Including the price, I wouldn’t pass on it solely due to interior color… that can be changed, albeit not inexpensively. What is the exterior color and do you like that and is the paint of good quality? Interiors are cheap compared to exteriors.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

I had 68 Bird hardtop survivor rolling cassis project 20 years ago with same horrid gold green inside and beige outside man I hated interior color as well .. I sold it all back then.. Damn good body but oh well

[justincampbell]

Originally Posted by will slow gto

If everything else about the car screams, “yes!” Including the price, I wouldn’t pass on it solely due to interior color… that can be changed, albeit not inexpensively. What is the exterior color and do you like that and is the paint of good quality? Interiors are cheap compared to exteriors.

The exterior appears to be verdoro green... which I have always liked. I haven't seen the car in person yet. But, in the pictures the paint looks good(which I realize doesn't necessarily mean much). It's not the cost of changing the interior color that bothers me. It is simply the fact that it is currently all original and, on desirable low mile musclecar, it just seems wrong to change. If it were a non numbers 350 2bbl or something, I wouldn't bat an eye about changing things.

[justincampbell]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC LARRY

I had 68 Bird hardtop survivor rolling cassis project 20 years ago with same horrid gold green inside and beige outside man I hated interior color as well .. I sold it all back then.. Damn good body but oh well

There are some colors I find myself asking "How did they con somebody into buying this car new?" Lol

[thews]

Originally Posted by justincampbell

The exterior appears to be verdoro green... which I have always liked. I haven't seen the car in person yet. But, in the pictures the paint looks good(which I realize doesn't necessarily mean much). It's not the cost of changing the interior color that bothers me. It is simply the fact that it is currently all original and, on desirable low mile musclecar, it just seems wrong to change. If it were a non numbers 350 2bbl or something, I wouldn't bat an eye about changing things.

Originally Posted by justincampbell

There are some colors I find myself asking "How did they con somebody into buying this car new?" Lol

I see your point about changing colors, but I sort of disagree from my perspective. My 69 350HO convertible is a Palladium silver black interior and black top 4 speed car. Power top, brakes and steering. The car only has about 58K miles on it when it was sent to a body shop for a frame off and I have the original interior which is in really nice shape. The guy I bought it from did the frame and I have all the parts to put it back together, except the original block and transmission. I do have a date correct 69 350 WN engine and 4 speed M20 (car has its posi).

So what color for the interior did I pick? Red of course, because I love red interiors. When you stated that can't believe someone would pick that color, I can relate. Brown was never a sports car color IMO, but there are cars with brown interiors (71 GTO) that look beautiful. My point is a fresh interior in any color you want is what I'm doing. I found a set of front seats a long time ago and I bought the rear seat of eBay. The black interior will stay in its box in its born-with condition, but if the block isn't numbers matching you're already in a different league than the numbers cars. The whole interior isn't that much, so I'd get a second interior in the colors you want and just stash the original.

A lot of people don't like red interiors, but I had one in my first 70 GTO and it screams of being a musclcar. There was a 69 Cortez silver Camaro with a red interior I fell in love with. Not for everone, but it looks the best to me. If I was picking any color it would be white, but it's safer to go with silver. If someone wants the original interior when I sell it, that's a choice.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Originally Posted by justincampbell

There are some colors I find myself asking "How did they con somebody into buying this car new?" Lol

Exactly, the car was Primavera Beige WTF is that ! Looks like a bad shade of a womens make up and the damn greeny gold interior was actually the upgrade Deluxe/Custom optional interior with a tilt wheel the water stains in kick panels looked like Coffee streaks

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by thews

I find it very curious that your 4 speed car has #62's (like my 400 did). I've seen a lot of cars in junkyards back in the 80's. Back then you'd see GTO's in Pick-A-Part. Every head was about $50, fender was $25 and the hoods were about $30 (still have a couple). The 69 GTO's were far more plentiful than the Firebirds. The 4-speed GTO's almost all had #48's. The 70's GTO's were always #12 for the stick and #13 for the automatics. My 69 350 HO 4-speed engine has #48's, but all the 350 HO's did. It's interesting why the 4-speed 69 Firebird 400's got the #62's?

A 69 firebird 400 firebird 4spd had 62 heads unless it was a RAMIII, then it had 48's. I believe there is merit to the conversation with the 067 vs. 068 cam following the heads. I have the 400 bird apart now, the original cam is a 067. Being the heads are so similar, the cam change would be enough to make a difference when ordering the RAMIII option. What doesn't make sense is, The 69 T/A's had RAMIII standard. How is the 62 head with 067 cam considered RAMIII?

[thews]

Originally Posted by necdb3

A 69 firebird 400 firebird 4spd had 62 heads unless it was a RAMIII, then it had 48's. I believe there is merit to the conversation with the 067 vs. 068 cam following the heads. I have the 400 bird apart now, the original cam is a 067. Being the heads are so similar, the cam change would be enough to make a difference when ordering the RAMIII option. What doesn't make sense is, The 69 T/A's had RAMIII standard. How is the 62 head with 067 cam considered RAMIII?

Good question. From what I've read about the non-Ram Air 69 GTO's, the automatics had the 067 cam and #62's and the 4-speeds had the 068 and #48's. I've also read the 60 GTO automatics also had #16's, but in my junkyard combing days experiences, I think the automatics all had #62's.

[necdb3]

I do view the 62 heads "RAMIII" but if someone says they are selling RAMIII 62 heads, the bad shatter starts.

[thews]

Originally Posted by necdb3

I do view the 62 heads "RAMIII" but if someone says they are selling RAMIII 62 heads, the bad shatter starts.

I understand the line between what is or is not considered "Ram Air" is a fine one, but if that line is ever crossed, I see nothing wrong in adding RAIII to the definition. Would there be a similar argument for a set of #48's? IMO, there's no question #48's are rightly considered RAIII heads, but they also came on a lot of 4-speed non RA cars. In a nutshell, the difference between a #62, #48, #12 and #13 is so slight I doubt you'd notice a difference.