[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

There are cast steel cranks in plenty of our engines.

There are no "cast steel" cranks. If this country had a functioning Federal Trade Commission, advertising "cast steel" when the material is obviously "cast iron" would result in recalls, fines, and prison sentences. The manufacturers are LYING when they tell you cheap-junk Chinese cranks are "cast steel".

Eagle actually bragged that their "cast steel" cranks have MORE carbon than the OEM "nodular" cast iron cranks. Steel is generally accepted to have an upper limit of about 2% carbon, while cast iron has more carbon than steel.--often 3% or more.

Actual "steel" is difficult to cast. Add some carbon, to make "cast iron" and the casting process becomes much easier.

[mgarblik]

From my experience, anything that complicates the cores, material, or production methods that a willing foundry routinely does will kill this project immediately. So some super high nickel cast iron, "cast steel" that can be easily welded or any other kind of wizz bang cool ideas will just kill it. If these replacement iron heads are ever to happen, they need to be made of typical production machinery cast iron mix, 2 styles of cores, one D port, one round port. As cast around 70 CC with the ability of CNC a larger chamber. That's it. No other options. If you want to weld on them, buy aluminum, If you want serious race heads, buy aluminum. If you want to move all the valvetrain and valve centerlines around, buy aluminum. These would be replacement heads for the dried-up supply of Ram Air III, Ram Air IV, 455-HO and a few of the better D-port OE heads. Also for 73 and Up Pontiac non SD-455 engines that never had decent heads to begin with. Also a good replacement for the earlier 389-421 heads that were pretty lousy from the factory as well. SD 421 excluded of course. That's my vision of what these heads are for. I may be all alone on this.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

There are no "cast steel" cranks. If this country had a functioning Federal Trade Commission, advertising "cast steel" when the material is obviously "cast iron" would result in recalls, fines, and prison sentences. The manufacturers are LYING when they tell you cheap-junk Chinese cranks are "cast steel".

Eagle actually bragged that their "cast steel" cranks have MORE carbon than the OEM "nodular" cast iron cranks. Steel is generally accepted to have an upper limit of about 2% carbon, while cast iron has more carbon than steel.--often 3% or more.

Actual "steel" is difficult to cast. Add some carbon, to make "cast iron" and the casting process becomes much easier.

I used to weld on US made cast steel hog hammers all day long. You weld them with 7018. They are not cast iron. I wish I could send a few pics of these obviously cast parts welded with a rod you simply can not made a good weld with.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I used to weld on US made cast steel hog hammers all day long. You weld them with 7018. They are not cast iron. I wish I could send a few pics of these obviously cast parts welded with a rod you simply can not made a good weld with.

Steel is difficult to cast. Not impossible. Cast iron is difficult to weld. Not impossible.

Maybe "hog hammers" really are cast steel. I wouldn't know. Never seen one, never looked at a metallurgical analysis of one. I don't know why "US made cast steel hog hammers" are relevant to this discussion about "bottom-feeder Communist Chinese auto parts."

When the crankshaft manufacturer's representative proudly admits to the interviewer that his company's product has more carbon that the cast-iron OEM parts, it's obvious that calling the product "cast steel" is a flat-out absolute lie with no place to hide.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0710...ankshaft-tech/

"For entry-level cast cranks, increasing the carbon content in proportion to iron improves strength," says Alan Davis of Eagle Specialty Products. The most basic cranks are cast iron, which typically have a tensile strength of about 70,000 to 80,000 psi. Slightly increasing the carbon content of iron produces nodular iron, resulting in a tensile strength of roughly 95,000 psi. Both materials are used extensively by the OEs, but won't quite cut it for more serious aftermarket stroker crank applications. Commonly used in entry-level aftermarket crankshafts, cast steel has greater carbon content than nodular iron, and a tensile strength of about 105,000 psi.

(My emphasis)

The issue is that "steel" has LESS carbon than "cast iron". Adding more carbon to common/popular cast iron does not make steel, it makes a different grade of cast iron.


Let's look at ASTM grades of "Cast Steel"
https://www.reliance-foundry.com/wp-...ades-chart.pdf

Notice that NONE of them have more than 1/2 of 1% (0.50) of carbon. Most have 1/3 or 1/4 of 1% But Eagle calls their carbon-infested iron "cast steel", and our government lets them get by with this deception.

There are no cast steel heads. They may be any one of a hundred different grades of cast iron, but they're cast iron. Steelheads are a fish.

[dmac]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

But Eagle calls their carbon-infested iron "cast steel", and our government lets them get by with this deception.

[.[/I][/B]

Now I don't know if we need more or less government

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by dmac

Now I don't know if we need more or less government

In this case, it's not the quantity of government; it's the fact that "watchdog" Federal agencies are far more comfortable being "Industry Lapdogs".

They're looking out for the corporations instead of looking out for We the People.

[gs462]

Is there a possibility that this is going to happen?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by gs462

Is there a possibility that this is going to happen?

The original creator of this thread/topic we are posting in, has stepped aside from pursuing the potential project for now.

and said at this time the cast iron head project is dead.

We are all just romanticizing about buying new stock looking RoundPorts for our runabouts.
They were actually proposing to do D-Ports in Iron with high flow numbers. iirc

Iron RoundPorts will sell
Thats what most everyone Really Wants that i have ever known.
Granted i don't run around with many racers or race car builders.
Just plain old guys with Pontiacs in their garages

NOBODY has ever said "i've got stacks and piles of Iron RoundPort heads that won't sell"

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

The original creator of this thread/topic we are posting in, has stepped aside from pursuing the potential project for now.



We are all just romanticizing about buying new stock looking RoundPorts for our runabouts.
They were actually proposing to do D-Ports in Iron with high flow numbers. iirc

Iron RoundPorts will sell
Thats what most everyone Really Wants that i have ever known.
Granted i don't run around with many racers or race car builders.
Just plain old guys with Pontiacs in their garages

NOBODY has ever said "i've got stacks and piles of Iron RoundPort heads that won't sell"

Agree. If D-ports were the only thing on the table, may as well forget it. It's not like you can't find those everywhere for cheap already. I was just at Goodguys and the swap meet had quite a few sets of D- ports for sale, 62's, 13's, a set of 12's and a ton of 6X stuff. Practically giving those things away at $200-$400 a set. Quite a few iron intakes as well. Not a single round port head to be found though. They were all still sitting there at the end of the day too, so it's not like people were tripping over themselves to get them.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

The original creator of this thread/topic we are posting in, has stepped aside from pursuing the potential project for now.



We are all just romanticizing about buying new stock looking RoundPorts for our runabouts.
They were actually proposing to do D-Ports in Iron with high flow numbers. iirc

Iron RoundPorts will sell
Thats what most everyone Really Wants that i have ever known.
Granted i don't run around with many racers or race car builders.
Just plain old guys with Pontiacs in their garages

NOBODY has ever said "i've got stacks and piles of Iron RoundPort heads that won't sell"

It starts by romanticizing about the parts you just wish were available. All the parts many take advantage of now started that way. 25 years ago, it was just crazy talk to go to meeting after meeting, PRI Show after PRI show, begging for ANY aftermarket head for a Pontiac. After being told by these company executives for the hundredth time, "if you want your GTO or Firebird to go fast or God forbid race it, why wouldn't you just pull that Pontiac boat anchor out and put a small block Chevy in it". Yes I have held my nose and heard those exact words forever. 25 years later, we have taken a traditional Pontiac V-8 to over 250 MPH in the quarter mile. Not sure ANY small block Chevy has ever been there. My point is, if you want something for our engines, you have to beat the bushes to a pulp. If Randy Repp isn't interested, or see's no way forward, hopefully some other smart individual can take the baton and run with it.
I respectfully disagree that a round port iron head is the only thing that would sell. Again, just because there are hundreds of sets of lousy D port heads laying around doesn't mean GOOD d-port heads are lying in piles. A 280 CFM iron D-port ready to run pair of heads will set you back around 3K. We could cast them new with those kind of flow numbers easily with today's technology.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Steel is difficult to cast. Not impossible. Cast iron is difficult to weld. Not impossible.

Maybe "hog hammers" really are cast steel. I wouldn't know. Never seen one, never looked at a metallurgical analysis of one. I don't know why "US made cast steel hog hammers" are relevant to this discussion about "bottom-feeder Communist Chinese auto parts."

When the crankshaft manufacturer's representative proudly admits to the interviewer that his company's product has more carbon that the cast-iron OEM parts, it's obvious that calling the product "cast steel" is a flat-out absolute lie with no place to hide.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0710...ankshaft-tech/

(My emphasis)

The issue is that "steel" has LESS carbon than "cast iron". Adding more carbon to common/popular cast iron does not make steel, it makes a different grade of cast iron.


Let's look at ASTM grades of "Cast Steel"
https://www.reliance-foundry.com/wp-...ades-chart.pdf

Notice that NONE of them have more than 1/2 of 1% (0.50) of carbon. Most have 1/3 or 1/4 of 1% But Eagle calls their carbon-infested iron "cast steel", and our government lets them get by with this deception.

There are no cast steel heads. They may be any one of a hundred different grades of cast iron, but they're cast iron. Steelheads are a fish.

Is there some reason heads could not be cast out of the same materiel as the hog hammers ? No reason you could not press seats and guides into it either.
Sure, you "can" weld cast iron, but it SUCKS. You have to grind deep wide groves, pre heat, peen the snot out of it, cool slowly...... and it still might crack. Its pour us so when used gets soaked with dirty oil contaminating it and it all boils up when you weld.
Cast steel is not pour-us, very easy to weld.
Note, I have 2 "cast steel" Eagle cranks. One was welded with plain hard wire in the balance job, welded perfectly. The other was sent out as a 3.25 main crank, cut down and the thrust welded up and machined. You can not tell it was even done.
There is more cast steel out there than you think.