Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

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  #21  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
The previous Luhn Performance Dyno testing with a 440 engine years ago made 862 ho at only 5300 rpm but it had an intercooler on it and a carburetor (way too small carb 750 cfm), and the carb was not perfectly dialed in.

It made that HP at less than 6000 rpm, but had Edelbrock heads, and I believe this engine has cast iron barely touched heads. Depending on the Belt Ratio of the Supercharger you can move the Supercharger vs Engine rpm around a bit.

So a rpm number does not mean that much.

I was told that they were going to use a new YSi supercharger that I sent to Mark, years ago. Marks Supercharger Bracket and Pulley/Belt work has always been really good.
He said something about sticking with a 8 rib belt and that is what the pictures showed I believe. We are not talking about a cog belt deal that is 50mm wide driving the supercharger. Just a real "street friendly" Pontiac set-up probably at 6000 rpm or less for best power. The other engine made that 862 HP at only 5300 rpm charlie.
Best torque on that engine was 4800 rpm.

This Engine with the larger supercharger, YSi vs the T-Trim supercharger used on the previous test should be a very happy unit making very low discharge temps to the Vortech Bonnet. Air Distribution to the Sniper EFI should be very good too.

Tom V.

Tom S, you number should be really close but just so I don't pick the same number as you I will bump it up a couple of HP numbers to 834 or 835 and around 750 on the torque. It should be really close for either guess, in my opinion.

I hit Mike Leech's (RIP MIKE) HP numbers with-in a couple of numbers I think 3 times when he was on the dyno.

Other guesses, Guys?
Duration is larger, so it will rpm higher then last time , ill say @ 15-18 psi it will make 910 hp .. i also think the smaller ports will yield more psi with the same pulley.. This will be interesting...

I wish him luck...
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Old 09-05-2019, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
The previous Luhn Performance Dyno testing with a 440 engine years ago made 862 ho at only 5300 rpm but it had an intercooler on it and a carburetor (way too small carb 750 cfm), and the carb was not perfectly dialed in.

It made that HP at less than 6000 rpm, but had Edelbrock heads, and I believe this engine has cast iron barely touched heads. Depending on the Belt Ratio of the Supercharger you can move the Supercharger vs Engine rpm around a bit.

So a rpm number does not mean that much.

I was told that they were going to use a new YSi supercharger that I sent to Mark, years ago. Marks Supercharger Bracket and Pulley/Belt work has always been really good.
He said something about sticking with a 8 rib belt and that is what the pictures showed I believe. We are not talking about a cog belt deal that is 50mm wide driving the supercharger. Just a real "street friendly" Pontiac set-up probably at 6000 rpm or less for best power. The other engine made that 862 HP at only 5300 rpm charlie.
Best torque on that engine was 4800 rpm.

This Engine with the larger supercharger, YSi vs the T-Trim supercharger used on the previous test should be a very happy unit making very low discharge temps to the Vortech Bonnet. Air Distribution to the Sniper EFI should be very good too.

Tom V.

Tom S, you number should be really close but just so I don't pick the same number as you I will bump it up a couple of HP numbers to 834 or 835 and around 750 on the torque. It should be really close for either guess, in my opinion.

I hit Mike Leech's (RIP MIKE) HP numbers with-in a couple of numbers I think 3 times when he was on the dyno.

Other guesses, Guys?
Duration is larger, so it will rpm higher then last time , ill say @ 15-18 psi it will make 910 hp .. i also think the smaller ports will yield more psi with the same pulley.. This will be interesting...

I wish him luck...
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  #23  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:42 AM
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I dont know why this posted twice . Sorry about that..
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  #24  
Old 09-05-2019, 09:16 AM
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Forum software has done this to me a few times lately Charlie, I just delete the second post as you are with-in the time limit to remove it when you first see it (believe that edit time is one hour). It did it to me as I made this post. I just removed it a minute ago.

Tom V.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:07 AM
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Interested to see what the power output will be and if Intake Air Charge is kept in check using just the Sniper EFI. I have been brainstorming the idea of a Turbocharger setup in my car, but have also tossed around the idea of a supercharger, given the ease of installation over the turbo. How much of a costs difference is there between the two, and what about maintenance for both as well? I'm running FiTech EFI so the data from this test interest me.
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  #26  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:36 PM
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In simple terms when you are dealing with a Belt Driven Supercharger, like a Vortech Unit, then you have a given cost because you are only messing with the intake side of things.

With a Turbo system you are dealing with both Intake and Exhaust parts and most likely can double the fabrication time and plumbing costs.

With the Supercharger parts already designed and for the most part trial fitted to the Pontiac engine you can install the system in a week-end (if you are an expert at doing them or at most a couple of week-ends). Turbocharger installations and fabrication costs can be a lot higher in cost and longer in time to get to a engine you can fire up on a test stand.

Tom V.

About as simple as I can make it.
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  #27  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:25 PM
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Im thinking 830, I hope it makes more but the 1 5/8 headers might cost it some power. I also think the boost psi # might be higher than expected with the reversion.
I say this because I had a vortech t-trim on a 351w and I went from 1 5/8 shorties to 1 3/4 longtubes and the boost dropped a few psi and I had to re-tune the carb.
  #28  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:52 PM
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It peaked at 749 Ft-lbs at 5700 and it peaked at 832 Hp at 5900.

The pulls were done at 180 to 195 degree engine water temperature to simulate in car temperatures.

The temperature probe in the intake manifold getting cooled by all that fuel ran at 64 degrees F under full load. The MAT sensor in the Sniper unit read 84 degrees F.

The torque curve is fairly flat, averaging 700+ Ft-lbs from 4200 to 6000 rpm.

Hp curve was linear going up at a constant angle to 6000 rpm.

All in all for a 6X-4 head that flows 165 on the intake and 112 on the exhaust I think it did OK.

The C firing order camshaft really helped smooth the engine out and allowed it to pull to 6000 rpm.

The Vortech V-7 series blower is a bad little blower at 13.5 to 14 psi of boost pressure.

Like anything we learned more then we knew before the test, still more to learn going forward.
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  #29  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:41 PM
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Great results, thanks for sharing. And the two Toms were almost dead on with their estimates!
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  #30  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:05 AM
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Thank you Scott and Charlie, sorry if I mislead you Charlie on the numbers, we rarely ever go over 14 lbs. of boost with a stock two bolt main block.

I am not sure that most folks understand the amount of experience and knowledge both Tom's posses. They have done more then we will ever do.

On another note we have an engine builder down in Texas that installed a Procharger D1Sc on a 462 Pontiac build. Spinning the motor to 5300 rpm, with an 8:1 compression ratio, at 7 lbs of boost with a Sniper EFI it made 610 ftlbs/600 Hp. This had E-heads. Based on these numbers it would be a similar outcome.

With that said the boost is very consistent as far as boost pressure and power gains in the Pontiac engine platform.

As far as centrifugal (belt driven turbo) supercharger compared to a exhaust driven turbocharger system, the supercharger has many benefits:

1. Ease of installation (A customer can bolt this kit on in 1.5 hours)
2. Can utilize existing headers and or exhaust system
3. Can use a BT carburetor versus going directly to fuel injection

We have been working on a turbocharger system with "cost effective" manifolds. Even in this case the development cost and time to make a complete ready to bolt on kit to date has doubled the development for the supercharger kits. And it is still not a reality yet.

We won't give up but we also will not compromise the cost factor as well as the quality and reliability. Stay tune...it is going to get really interesting in the "boost" world for our beloved Pontiac's!

If anyone has a question please feel free to ask on this thread or call or email us. We have nothing to hide and there is no black magic, just good ole physics in play.
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  #31  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:55 AM
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How much, if at all, would having this engine installed in a closed engine compartment affect the intake temp numbers you observed? Would heat soak make it a short distance cruiser with no intercooler?
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  #32  
Old 09-10-2019, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPI View Post
Thank you Scott and Charlie, sorry if I mislead you Charlie on the numbers, we rarely ever go over 14 lbs. of boost with a stock two bolt main block.

I am not sure that most folks understand the amount of experience and knowledge both Tom's posses. They have done more then we will ever do.

On another note we have an engine builder down in Texas that installed a Procharger D1Sc on a 462 Pontiac build. Spinning the motor to 5300 rpm, with an 8:1 compression ratio, at 7 lbs of boost with a Sniper EFI it made 610 ftlbs/600 Hp. This had E-heads. Based on these numbers it would be a similar outcome.

With that said the boost is very consistent as far as boost pressure and power gains in the Pontiac engine platform.

As far as centrifugal (belt driven turbo) supercharger compared to a exhaust driven turbocharger system, the supercharger has many benefits:

1. Ease of installation (A customer can bolt this kit on in 1.5 hours)
2. Can utilize existing headers and or exhaust system
3. Can use a BT carburetor versus going directly to fuel injection

We have been working on a turbocharger system with "cost effective" manifolds. Even in this case the development cost and time to make a complete ready to bolt on kit to date has doubled the development for the supercharger kits. And it is still not a reality yet.

We won't give up but we also will not compromise the cost factor as well as the quality and reliability. Stay tune...it is going to get really interesting in the "boost" world for our beloved Pontiac's!

If anyone has a question please feel free to ask on this thread or call or email us. We have nothing to hide and there is no black magic, just good ole physics in play.
It wasnt you Mark. I miss read it. When i saw 22--26 i thought you were going to go higher then 13 psi. Plus i really thought with the smaller runner size that it would go higher with the boost then last time .. 750 pounds of torque from a 4" stroke is unbelievable ! Great job! Thats alot of torque for a street car.Would love to see you go 20 psi with it one of these days though.. haha..

Good luck with what you're looking too achieve..
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  #33  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:19 AM
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70Bird was right there with his HP number too.

All three of us have a lot of time invested in street driven Pontiacs.

Tom V.
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John M and BAE just created a billet block for John, bye, bye 5.80s
  #34  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPI View Post
Thank you Scott and Charlie, sorry if I mislead you Charlie on the numbers, we rarely ever go over 14 lbs. of boost with a stock two bolt main block.

I am not sure that most folks understand the amount of experience and knowledge both Tom's posses. They have done more then we will ever do.

On another note we have an engine builder down in Texas that installed a Procharger D1Sc on a 462 Pontiac build. Spinning the motor to 5300 rpm, with an 8:1 compression ratio, at 7 lbs of boost with a Sniper EFI it made 610 ftlbs/600 Hp. This had E-heads. Based on these numbers it would be a similar outcome.

With that said the boost is very consistent as far as boost pressure and power gains in the Pontiac engine platform.

As far as centrifugal (belt driven turbo) supercharger compared to a exhaust driven turbocharger system, the supercharger has many benefits:

1. Ease of installation (A customer can bolt this kit on in 1.5 hours)
2. Can utilize existing headers and or exhaust system
3. Can use a BT carburetor versus going directly to fuel injection

We have been working on a turbocharger system with "cost effective" manifolds. Even in this case the development cost and time to make a complete ready to bolt on kit to date has doubled the development for the supercharger kits. And it is still not a reality yet.

We won't give up but we also will not compromise the cost factor as well as the quality and reliability. Stay tune...it is going to get really interesting in the "boost" world for our beloved Pontiac's!

If anyone has a question please feel free to ask on this thread or call or email us. We have nothing to hide and there is no black magic, just good ole physics in play.
Hi Mark,

With the DCI Ram Air V Heads being 1 Inch Taller, will this effect your bracketry
or Supercharger installation?

Steve Page
  #35  
Old 09-14-2019, 07:14 AM
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Steve,

If the end head bolts are in the factory location and the head is just larger then yes the brackets will bolt right up but the volute may hit the valve cover or head.

In the original post the headers listed were 1 5/8". The actual header size is 1 3/4".

We had zero reversion in the intake, mostly due to the camshaft overlap.

Charlie, if you have any input as to your experience or though as to why the switch to a cast iron head versus the E-head did not as we also predicted increased the restriction and the boost pressure.

Thank you to all of you for the questions, comments and the continuing conversation on boost for the beloved Pontiac engine.

Scott,

Air intake temperature will affect the process of air in, compression and air out but we feel the amount of fuel being sprayed along with the Holley Sniper fuel spray pattern that under WOT we should still benefit from the fuel cooling. How much we will have to see once the engine is installed and running in the vehicle.

On the run stand on an 86 degree day with the relative humidity at 87% at 600 feet altitude we saw air temps of 65 degrees F at the MAT sensor in the Sniper unit up to 2400 rpm (no load). The MAT sensor in the Sniper unit is above the throttle blades, so no cooling affect from the fuel per say.

The engine during the dyno testing was run with water temperatures in the 178 to 194 degree F range. We figured that the cylinder head temperature should match a running vehicle.

We had a huge advantage at this dyno facility with the type and amount of instrumentation and thus real time data produced during each pull.

This allowed us to see in real time the possibility of detonation.

Technology has come so far compared to a basic distributor and a carburetor. We picked up 110 ftlbs just by modifying (adding or subtracting) fuel and timing in small areas across the 31x31 matrix.

No offense to anyone considered "a tuner" but this really is not rocket science. Anyone with a dyno or a lot of in car "seat" time can easily tune a car safely as long as you take it in baby steps and you have a basic understanding of fuel, spark and load.

We were changing fuel and timing points by .01 increments, it really can be affected by small increments across the whole spectrum.

Not to beat a dead horse or put people on pedestals but there are many folks on the PY board that have a vast amount of knowledge on performance engine design and tuning. If you actually either listen or read what they post, you can learn a tremendous amount about increasing the power output of your project without damaging anything.

Probably one of the most interesting experiences next to watching "Double D" Matt tune (He is a master tuner for Mega Squirt) his big Hp twin turbo Goodwin Hemi engine for the Dart. (side note: Fellow Rich Guido Canadian drag racer Matt Blasco)

The amount of data that can be recorded and the amount of "advanced" ICF modules in the Holley software let you create lots of fail safes based on the closed loop system.

The other key aspect which allowed the engine to handle the load induced by the supercharger is basically oil pressure or more specifically oil film density.

On this motor we tightened up all of the crankshaft clearances and used the new coated King main bearing for the Pontiac 3" main as well as the coated King BBC bearings.

With other bearing manufacturers it generally takes two sets of main bearings and three sets of rod bearings to get the exact clearance across the entire crankshaft.

When utilizing the King bearings we used only one set of main bearings (good crankshafts are golden) and only two sets of rod bearings. All of the clearances were held to +/- .0002". We held the clearance size to this high of a standard to ensure that we did not introduce "air" into the oil circuit do to fluctuating oil film thickness flow.

It really is a great time to be involved in the Pontiac hobby.
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  #36  
Old 09-14-2019, 11:58 AM
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Thanks for posting results and answering questions. If you can't tell, I'm trying to gather from the info whether this would be possible with injectors at the port. I'm not going back to injected at the throttle body. But if it could work without an intercooler with what I have, it's a possibility for me. I hope you'll report back the results of some in car testing.
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  #37  
Old 09-14-2019, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPI View Post
In other sections time to time folks post up their engine projects to see what it may make on the dyno. We thought we would try it here in the boost section as well to give it, the boost section, shall we say some ...boost.

It is a 1969 400 two bolt main block 4.180" bore, 4.00" stroke (440)

1977 6X-4 cylinder heads (93cc), SS valves, no port work, mild exhaust "hump" clean up with Crower 1.5 roller rockers, Isky valve springs

MLS head gaskets

Custom Ford/LS-1 firing order hydraulic roller camshaft 249/261 @.050 .382" lobe

Hooker 1 5/8" D port headers W/Pypes reducers and 6" dia. x 24" Magnaflow street mufflers W/multiple O2 sensors

Our new passenger side 8 rib serpentine belt drive Vortech V-7 series supercharger kit with the mating Vortech 360 degree Power hat.

No inter cooler or water-meth injection

Hurricane single plane intake manifold 4150 carb flange

Holley Super Sniper 1250 throttle body EFI system with their Hyper spark ignition and the dual sync HE distributor

Mechanical water pump and a 64 amp GM alternator

We will be limiting the rpm to 5500-6000
Can you show post a top down view from above the Supercharger?
  #38  
Old 09-14-2019, 08:35 PM
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Scott,

You are in luck, round three is the same long block with some minor changes.

One of the changes will be a Holley HP system with a single throttle body and port injection. At this time we will be trying out the new V-7 YSi-B with the improved billet impeller.

The goal is to see if we can make reliable power without the use of an intercooler or water-meth injection.

Stay tune...
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  #39  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:11 PM
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Will do!
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  #40  
Old Yesterday, 02:39 AM
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Charlie, if you have any input as to your experience or though as to why the switch to a cast iron head versus the E-head did not as we also predicted increased the restriction and the boost pressure.

Mark what are the differences in size between the first cam and this one just used?
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