[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I did like 1600 or something miles on this past power tour, and the pump was slowly giving up along the way. Once it got down to a certain level of fuel, it was hot, and psi would drop off. That level just happened to be between 1/2 and a 1/4 tank, but it was a time thing, how long the pump ran.


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I've had the same experience, being more related to continuous run time. I've used both rotor/vane and geroter style inline pumps from Holley, Mallory, and Walbro with the same conclusions. Since I live in a warm climate it compounds the issue as well. After 2-3 hours of run time the pump is hot and fuel pressure drops off, sometimes to the point of the engine sputtering. After switching to an "in-tank" pump it was trouble free for thousands of miles and long (several hours) trips. You won't have to worry about it for years to come. There's a reason why OEM's all use in-tank pumps
With an in-tank pump I usually follow the 10 year/100,000 mile regiman. Even if they are still working fine I'll drop the tank and replace anyway as preventive maintanance. I figure that's a long service life. So even with the thought of dropping the tank every 10 years or 100k really doesn't happen that often, and for alot of people, they won't even keep their cars that long anyway. So fear of dropping the tank isn't much concern.

[HWYSTR455]

Clone needs an overdrive, and if I do one, I would like to use an E version, which means a controller. If I do that, might do EFI, port or throttle body, haven't made up my mind there. I'll revisit that thought next summer, once I get the LeMans done. But obviously, that would be an in tank pump.

Yup, 2-3 hour range. Funny though, the LeMans has a HP150 on it, and I can go hours and hours with no issue/pump overheat. Still puzzles me.

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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Clone needs an overdrive, and if I do one, I would like to use an E version, which means a controller. If I do that, might do EFI, port or throttle body, haven't made up my mind there. I'll revisit that thought next summer, once I get the LeMans done. But obviously, that would be an in tank pump.

Yup, 2-3 hour range. Funny though, the LeMans has a HP150 on it, and I can go hours and hours with no issue/pump overheat. Still puzzles me.

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I do still have 2 other cars here with external electric pumps. One is my old truck, using a Mallory low pressure 70 gph pump with a return line (no reg required), it died at 6,000 miles :shrug: Now I don't trust that thing much further than around the block. The engine is coming back out for a proper cam with mechanical pump accentric so I can make that thing dependable again. Has dual tanks so no in tank pumps on this one, going back to stock mechanical.

My other car, a chevelle, I run a Mallory 140 (similar to your HP150). I've been on 2-3 hour trips from home with it and not an issue with getting hot and quitting, however I've had to rebuild that pump twice though because the bushings just flat wear out on it. Fuel pressure starts to fumble and the pump sounds funny, then I know it's time.
Pump is $280 vs a rebuild kit for about $70. I get about 2-3 years of service (street miles) out of it before it's due for another rebuild. Done that twice now, getting sick of that. Next time it's due I'm going Tanks Inc and in-tank pump and be done with it.

Other cars I've already converted to in-tank after very similar issues (being stuck on the side of the road when it's 110 outside is no fun)

[Tom Vaught]

There are some very nice In-tank Fuel Pump set-ups for sale these days for the GTOs and F-Birds. Not advertising for TANKS,inc but this page shows some of their offerings:

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...cat/cat128.htm

The prices are very reasonable too for a new tank.

Most of the Mustang Guys have converted from a Single EFI type "pump on a stick"
to dual and triple "pumps on a stick". A couple of the Aeromotive or Tanks, inc fuel
pumps (see Link) would get you a 1200 HP capability. 600+ with one GSS 340 pump.

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd278.htm

Tom V.

ps I totally agree with Formulajones that the OEM style In-Tank Fuel Pumps are the way to go. You need a proper baffle system inside the tank though.
The Tanks, Inc has that. Summit has a weld in insert Baffle plate that works (maybe).

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

There are some very nice In-tank Fuel Pump set-ups for sale these days for the GTOs and F-Birds. Not advertising for TANKS,inc but this page shows some of their offerings:

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...cat/cat128.htm

The prices are very reasonable too for a new tank.

Most of the Mustang Guys have converted from a Single EFI type "pump on a stick"
to dual and triple "pumps on a stick". A couple of the Aeromotive or Tanks, inc fuel
pumps (see Link) would get you a 1200 HP capability. 600+ with one GSS 340 pump.

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd278.htm

Tom V.

Yep, my father just did a Tanks-Inc setup with a big (400 LPH I think) Walbro (on a stick) good for ~1,000 NA HP. Very nice setup. The 340 Walbro wouldn't support the power he's making. Same setup I'll use on my chevelle when that 140 gives up the ghost (again) If I had only one minor complaint it's the sending unit on these tanks, which requires a special bolt in style rather than the old lock ring. So you have to go aftermarket on your sending unit.

My last in-tank swap was in my 72 blazer (6.0 LS swap) So I went with a custom 37 gallon from North West Metal Products along with a Walbro 340 on a stick and couldn't have been happier. Trouble free from then on out. Same deal though, I needed an aftermarket bolt in sending unit, but that was a given since it was a custom 37 gallon tank anyway.

[HWYSTR455]

Thought I mentioned it on this thread, but the sending units Tanks, Inc supplies are the ones with the round ball float, and I couldn't get it to adjust where it would swing the entire range, empty to full, it would contact the top or bottom of the tank before it would. So I used my old one, which was originally sourced from Classic Instruments, and it has a flat, rectangular float. That worked, and I get full reading on the gauge now.

Also, the rubber gaskets that originally were included with the tank and sending unit are junk, and leaked from day one. I did everything too, lubed them, and even tightened them once, they just suck. I purchased the cork ones and use Teflon paste on the screws to mount, no more leaks. (That was the final time when I replaced the sender).

I ran the Mallory 140 originally on the LeMans, it failed. Twice. Once deadhead, the warranty replacement was with a bypass. Tried a Aeromotive SS, way too loud, then went to the HP150. I wouldn't have bought one for the clone if I didn't have the luck I did with it. Oh well.

I'm tearing into the LeMans now, about to go completely through it. I have a custom stainless tank in it, it's baffled, and a larger capacity (26 gal), but no provision for an internal pump. Otherwise I would use a Tanks, Inc and internal...

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[goathead455]

Has anyone tried the Aeromotive Phantom Pump?

[HWYSTR455]

bump

[grivera]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Thought I mentioned it on this thread, but the sending units Tanks, Inc supplies are the ones with the round ball float, and I couldn't get it to adjust where it would swing the entire range, empty to full, it would contact the top or bottom of the tank before it would. So I used my old one, which was originally sourced from Classic Instruments, and it has a flat, rectangular float. That worked, and I get full reading on the gauge now.

Also, the rubber gaskets that originally were included with the tank and sending unit are junk, and leaked from day one. I did everything too, lubed them, and even tightened them once, they just suck. I purchased the cork ones and use Teflon paste on the screws to mount, no more leaks. (That was the final time when I replaced the sender).

I ran the Mallory 140 originally on the LeMans, it failed. Twice. Once deadhead, the warranty replacement was with a bypass. Tried a Aeromotive SS, way too loud, then went to the HP150. I wouldn't have bought one for the clone if I didn't have the luck I did with it. Oh well.

I'm tearing into the LeMans now, about to go completely through it. I have a custom stainless tank in it, it's baffled, and a larger capacity (26 gal), but no provision for an internal pump. Otherwise I would use a Tanks, Inc and internal...

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Mike- can a regular pick-up (factory or RobbMC) be used with those tanks? What's the second hole for?

[HWYSTR455]

No, the OE sending units use a rubber o-ring and compression collar, the Tanks, Inc tanks use the standard 5 and 6 bolt holes. One hole, the 6 screw hole, is an EFI pump assembly hole, but Tanks Inc and others make non-pump pickups for that hole (which I am using at the moment).

If you need to run one of those, one of the non-pump pickups, I will give you one, I have spares.

The other hole is the sender hole, the 5 screw hole. And take note on the senders. Also, use the cork gaskets, the rubber gaskets grow distort and leak.

I had just put a new tank in the clone and then went to the Tanks tank. So I have a brand new OE 68-72 a-body tank sitting in the garage if anyone wants it, can have it for free. (But I'm not going to ship it).

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[Will]

Lots of great info in this thread, thanks!

I think I'll get one of those Tanks Inc tanks with the in-tank pump for my Formula.

[Singleton]

With one of those Tank Inc in-tank pumps, say a 255lph Walbro, would a 1/2" line be required? I would think that pump could make due with a 3/8" feed and 3/8 return, with a bypass regulator on a carb motor.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Singleton

With one of those Tank Inc in-tank pumps, say a 255lph Walbro, would a 1/2" line be required? I would think that pump could make due with a 3/8" feed and 3/8 return, with a bypass regulator on a carb motor.

Yeah, 3/8 feed would be fine in this situation, but I'd be concerned about the return. Since you need to bypass like 70% or more of the volume, bet you need to use 1/2 line. So if you're doing it, might as well do both. The symptom of not an adequate return line size would be you could crank the regulator in and it wouldn't go below X psi. If that X is too high, you can blow the needle off the seat and flood it.

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[grivera]

Thanks Mike. I sent you a drawing- please critique when you get time

[HWYSTR455]

Hm. Thought I mentioned the sending unit on this thread, maybe is was on a different thread.

The fuel sender that comes from Tanks Inc, uses a round ball for a float, and it seemed like in order to adjust it following the recommendations in the instructions, it needs to be a real short swing arm, and that makes the range not very granular. Plus it didn't ever seem to read completely full, think maybe the ball was touching the top of the tank and limiting travel.

So I used a different sending unit, which was like the Classic Instruments SN38 (for 0-90 ohm). It has a flat, oblong float that spins freely, and it solved the problem I was having. Also, because of the rheostat design, the range of swing was more usable. I had one on hand, got it when I purchased the gauges, which was a saving grace at the time. The one I have is a different ohm range, which is why I said 'like', but basically the same sender.


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[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by grivera

Thanks Mike. I sent you a drawing- please critique when you get time

I didn't see it yet, PM'd you my email address just in case.

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[grivera]

I photographed it and sent it to your phone- I can redraw and scan if better?

[HWYSTR455]

Ah, ok, I got it. Looks pretty good. At the tank end, think you might need extensions, like the brass ones I did, with a 45 brass elbow, and a straight union. Then you need NTP to 8 AN male, the end of the lines would attach to those.

What I normally do is buy extras, just incase something pops up, you can switch it up a little and not have to wait for the ends to show up.

Flaring. You can use compression fittings and not have to flare anything. BUT, depending on how/where you mount the regulator, you might be limited to using tube sleeves/nuts, because they take up less space. Like there may be not enough room to fit a compression fitting (they are bulkier). If you do choose to use sleeves/nuts, practice flaring on a short piece of tube to get the hang of it. Most of the time until you get the hang of it, when you flare the tube, you go too big, and/or it splits.

An AN flaring tool is not a bad thing to own, and once you start doing AN stuff, you will most likely do more. If that's the case, just spring for one now, they are like $45-80 for a nice one. (I like the Rigid one I have, #41162).

If you choose to use braided in the engine compartment, buy new fine tooth hack saw blades to cut the hose. I strongly recommend a set of vise jaws to protect the ends to assemble too. It makes sense to have a set of cheap AN wrenches too, actually, 2 sets, and the Summit ones are not bad at all, especially for the price.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-1004erl

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900102/overview/

Push hose. Use a hose/tubing cutter to get clean, square cuts. They're like $15 at Home Schleppo, and you will certainly use them again. (Careful, those things are deceivingly sharp). And use assembly lube on them as well. Once you start pushing, don't stop, or slow down, keep pushing at the same rate. Once you stop it's hard to get started again.

Running joke around my house is that no project is complete until some blood is spilled. I bleed on everything. This is one of those jobs, so cover loved-one's ears before the cussing starts. (ie, buy mech gloves)

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[grivera]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Tank finally came in, they have them in stock again, if any are interested. (Tanks, Inc $225). Got the sending unit adjusted and mounted, and the pickup & return assembly. Also had to do some brass fittings since the AN adapters were bottoming on the mounting plate before they tightened. Works for me, since the fittings are very close to where the existing fittings are, and the existing lines will mate right up without doctoring them. Nice.

Should have it in by end of day Saturday, will slowly fill and run it, see how far down I can go without it sucking air, will report back. But just by the looks of things, problem solved.

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These are simple brass extensions? No flaring involved?

[HWYSTR455]

Look at post #54, that's how the in tank pump assemblies look coming out of the tank. Remember that the AN fittings are a little bulky, so there may not be enough space between the floor and the tank. Also, you can't screw right into the top of the assembly with the AN fittings, there's not enough room to turn them.

Flare nuts don't save you that much money over the compression fittings, once you add up the sleeves, nuts, and adapters/unions. Also, in some areas, once you run the line, you can't pull it back out and flare it, so a compression fitting makes sense. With the nut on the end of the line, makes it tough to snake it back into position anyway.

Don't forget to stagger the fittings to save space. And don't forget to allow for a little movement, like don't clamp the lines rigidly to the car. (Chassis flex can cause stress on the lines and ends)

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