#81  
Old 11-22-2020, 05:35 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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John, Ken Crocie's 535 build was 11:1 compression.

Note the amount of power produced is listed in 200 rpm increments. At 5400 and 5600 rpm they are within 1 hp.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...-alloy-indian/


.

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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

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  #82  
Old 11-23-2020, 02:53 PM
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Brought the new toy home today. The dyno sheet in hand. Not sure I really understand everything that's going on here but here you go.
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  #83  
Old 11-23-2020, 03:09 PM
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Nice! And it liked 37 degrees of timing. Peak at 5500.

You're going to have fun with that one.

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Old 11-23-2020, 04:01 PM
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Very Impressive!!!!

Can't wait to see it in between the fenders.

Have fun with that one!!!!!!!!

  #85  
Old 11-23-2020, 05:48 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Stout !





.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #86  
Old 11-23-2020, 10:00 PM
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That's at 5000ft+ altitude, correct? Looks like a beast

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1968 Lemans. 37,000 original miles. GTO clone. 462ci/KRE 290 heads. UltraDyne 280/288 Solid/850 Qjet by Cliff/Performer RPM/TSP 9.5" in TH400/8.5" 3.42 gears/3950# Race weight/12.58@106 at Bandimere speedway high altitude
  #87  
Old 11-23-2020, 10:52 PM
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Yes we're at about 5,500'.

It's getting a little real now. It's on the floor in the garage...the Northwind intake is quite a bit taller than the Torker II. I really hope this fits under the hood . I would hate to get rid of that intake. I'm in search of a drop base for the air filter. Holley has a 1" base but more would be better. The EFI has some bumpy parts that need to be cleared which may be the limiting factor and the valve covers a bit taller too...do I really need windshield wipers? Fun can be described in so may ways.

The devil is in the details as they say.

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  #88  
Old 11-24-2020, 11:17 AM
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Dad ran into the same issue.

He didn't want to take off the Victor intake and 2" taper spacer that made best power on the dyno.

Ended up buying a 2" raised fiberglass hood that looks like a stock hood, but that wasn't quite enough.

The finishing touch, maybe what might work for you, is I ended up using an L88 corvette drop base air cleaner, which has more drop than I could find on the other aftermarket stuff I tried. It fits perfectly over his Holley Sniper Stealth EFI.

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Old 11-24-2020, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Dad ran into the same issue.

He didn't want to take off the Victor intake and 2" taper spacer that made best power on the dyno.

Ended up buying a 2" raised fiberglass hood that looks like a stock hood, but that wasn't quite enough.

The finishing touch, maybe what might work for you, is I ended up using an L88 corvette drop base air cleaner, which has more drop than I could find on the other aftermarket stuff I tried. It fits perfectly over his Holley Sniper Stealth EFI.
Fantastic! Thanks for that tip!

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  #90  
Old 11-24-2020, 12:26 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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The pictures in post number 61 show no spacer.

Was there a spacer applied during the dyno session ?

Also, do you have any other dyno sheets that show at what rpm the engine made peak torque at ?

Engine Power Curves - From The Dyno To The Racetrack
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp...-power-curves/


.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 11-24-2020 at 12:37 PM.
  #91  
Old 11-24-2020, 01:34 PM
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Looks like a beast

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  #92  
Old 11-24-2020, 01:56 PM
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I don't have any other print outs in the packet of info they gave me. I'll ask the shop if they stored any others. I know they spent some time tuning the EFI and helping with it's learning. The dyno tech said that he had been "driving it around" to get it dialed in. He mentioned running it closed loop and open loop. I understand in concept what this means but I'm brand new to EFI. We talked about the placement of the O2 sensor. As mine will be a full exhaust he suggested I put the sensor in the collector. In the dyno set up, they used a set of test headers and in that case the O2 sensor was up in one of the primary tubes. I'll be using 1 7/8" Doug's in the car once all is done.

The report shown was done the day before I was able to come to the shop and watch. On the day that I was there, there was no spacer. I think I have a photo of it when it was on the dyno stand (I'll check to be sure). When I was there I did see the torque number on the screen go just a bit over 700 at like 4600 RPM (working from memory) on two occasions. They did a pull to 6000 but there wasn't anything to be gained from that. I do know the intake and the heads received a lot of work.

Hope that answers your question(s).

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  #93  
Old 11-24-2020, 04:41 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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I was curious about the peak torque rpm, nothing more. From the tech article I posted a serious racer might align himself with this comment...

"Once you leave the dyno you should be armed with some documentation gleaned from the dyno runs. You need to be concerned not only with the peak power but where the torque and horsepower numbers are versus engine rpm. These critical bits of data are just what you paid for."

If you look at many dyno sheets for roller lifter profiles often the spread is 1000-1200 or more rpm between peak torque and peak power. As much as 1400+ rpm is not uncommon. Combination specific.

.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #94  
Old 11-24-2020, 06:30 PM
punkin punkin is offline
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I will admit, this is the first motor I've had built by someone else and never been to a dyno before. I've had machine work done and assembled my own with hit and miss results. I'm really pleased, no guess work on my part and it surely looks to have met all my expectations.

At the risk of changing the original intent of my post, I was hoping that from the dyno results and a little info about the car (3660 lbs with 1/2 tank of gas and my old self), 3.55:1 gears, 26" tires and a 4L80e, what torque converter should I be looking at? It will be 90% street driving and I'm hearing that a lock-up unit would be ideal for over-drive highway cruising. If you or anyone else had suggestions I would really appreciate it.

Thanks!

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1968 Firebird
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4L80E
3.50:1 Rear
  #95  
Old 11-24-2020, 07:26 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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My opinion...

http://www.ultimateconverter.com/

Lock up converter or not, another controversial topic. Big difference when you call the torque converter company for a CUSTOM (not off the shelf ! ) unit specific for your application and they ask regarding the power curve involved !


Engine Torque Curves And Converters. Basically, the idea behind selecting a converter is to coordinate the converter stall speed to the engine torque curve. Unfortunately, optimism can have a detrimental effect upon converter selection, especially when it comes to engine output.
.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 11-24-2020 at 07:35 PM.
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  #96  
Old 11-24-2020, 07:32 PM
nmoreilly nmoreilly is offline
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Great build and thread ! Just curious are you used ng a vacuum pump / any oil control issues ?

  #97  
Old 11-24-2020, 07:49 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Agree, great build. And not to muddy the water here maybe the torque converter topic might be best served as it's own separate posted topic. Including all the specs involved regarding that subject.

My .02


.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #98  
Old 11-24-2020, 09:38 PM
punkin punkin is offline
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I do agree. I've learned plenty during this and hope others can as well.

As for oil control, I hadn't planned on a pump. I've heard they don't live long for street use. Certainly there hasn't been a lot of run time on it yet but no oil up through the breathers during the break in and initial tests. Are there vacuum pumps that can do extended street time?

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  #99  
Old 11-24-2020, 10:48 PM
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I haven't heard of vacuum pumps having street mile ratings or whether they are short lived in a street application, but I do know they need to be able to either pull a bit of oil for lubrication or you need to add oil yourself on a routine basis. They rely on oil for lubrication for obvious reasons. So if someone was using a vacuum pump that wasn't lubricated enough I could see a pretty short life with it.

Dad is in that experimental stage right now with a vacuum pump on his street car. It took some doing with adjustments and placing the suction line in the correct place on the valve cover to get the system to pull just a little bit of oil for lubrication, because honestly having to add oil every 100 miles to the vacuum pump is just a pain to deal with and worry about.

At first his was pulling too much oil, would fill the reservoir before he could even make the 100 mile drive to Phoenix, and spew oil all over the car.

After a lot of trial and error, it now pulls just the right amount of oil (I believe) to keep it lubricated, yet we can now drive it 200 miles without an over full reservoir.
Round trip to Phoenix last weekend, after 200 miles, it only pulled 5 ounces of oil.

So now we'll see how many street miles it lasts. So far it's been on there for a couple thousand miles.

For the record though, his 571 worked fine with a PCV valve and no issues.

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  #100  
Old 11-25-2020, 12:05 PM
nmoreilly nmoreilly is offline
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My build is somewhat similar to yours - 535 IAII, 10.5 CR, KRE hi ports / 360 CFM, low / mid 250's HR w/ 0.640 lift, Victor. I'm running it in a 66 GTO with an AGE M23 4 speed / 3.73 bolt. I'm running a PCV on one drivers side / breather on the other and have no oil control issues to speak of in what's a pretty much street driven car. I've seen occasional runs of oil on either side of back of pan (Stefs) but nothing has ever made it onto garage floor, so I think it may just be some seepage around pan bolts. Tons of stuff on here about pump vs no pump and I see Formulajones has given some background on what they've been doing wi h his Dads car

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