[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Ken MacNicol

Every one qualifies, except at Indy

Yeah, if you can't go real close to .900 under, there's not much chance of makin the 128 car field, @ Indy.

But, everywhere else, if you are allowed to enter, I assume you can run, as long as you pass tech, even if your car won't run anywhere close to the index. But, you can't dial any slower than the index.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Ken MacNicol

Every one qualifies, except at Indy

Thanks. My bad. Not sure what I was looking at.

Stan

[ponyakr]

May have asked this before.

Jack Mullins won the US Nats in '75, beating Judy Lilly's Mopar, in the final.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

So, was that the first Pontiac SS win, at the US Nats ? Not counting those earlier races, when they were still running Top Stock & Jr. Stock.

Has there been another Pontiac win in SS, at the US Nats, since then ?

Is there an online source for a list of all Stock & SS US Nats winners ?

Most all the winners lists I've found, so far, only list the Pro winners.

Don't know why I haven't mentioned it(or maybe I have). But not only did Jack win the Sports Nats & the US Nats in '75, but: "...He won the 1976 Sportsnationals running a 12.51, taking out Steve Bagwell's SS/BA Plymouth.

Jack went on to win a divisional points race in Louisiana and another one in Oklahoma City. He was the #1 qualifier at the NHRA Summernationals at Englishtown, but redlighted in the final against local hero Bernie Agaman and the "Bayonne Missile" '71 454 Corvette..."

That ain't bad for a 2-year run, in a old Pontiac wagon. He took out 2 of the best SS Mopars of that time period, won the Sports Nats back-to-back, & qualified #1 at the Summer Nats, with an RU finish !

Yep, Jack was one of my Pontiac heroes.

[ponyakr]

And, speakin of Jack Mullins.

I just discovered yesterday that a lot of info & pics I'm lookin for is NOT in the Stock/SS section, of the Class Racer forum.

It's actually in a completely different section about NOSTALGIA Stock/SS.

Anyhow, I found this thread asking about a Jack Mullins built '73 SD455 SS Bird. Until then, I didn't know Jack ever had a '73 drag Bird. Someone posted that they thought it was the John Clegg '73 SD455. But John bought his Bird new. Bob Michael posted that he just barely edged Jack out for a class win at a nat event, in his SD455 Bird.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...35&postcount=6

Anyhow, Glen Tinsley posted that he had bought Jack Mullins '73 Bird, raced it for a while & set some records with it. I've even posted some pics of it, at the Eastex track, IIRC.

Well, Glen posted that he later sold the car to someone in Houston.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...5&postcount=10

I was gonna ask Glen this question, but I see he hasn't posted on Class Racer in several years. I think I posted pics of a white '73 T/A, that was for sale at the '78 Cajun Nats.

In getting these pics ready to post, I think I just figured it out. The permanent # was 41. Just looked at a pic we took of Jack Mullins' wagon in 1975. His # was 41. So, I think that settles it. Jack ran it at the Cajuns, with For Sale signs on it, & Glen Tinsley bought it.

Glad that one is finally solved. I've often wondered what happened to that car. Now I know, the rest of the story, or at least thru when it was sold in Houston. Have no idea if it has been raced since, or not.

[Skip Fix]

Pretty sure Glenn did lease the 74 from the Cleggs back in the early 80s. And I do remember it setting a SS record at the track down in Dickinson with a D port 455 in it Torker with a big spacer.. He even drove me around the block at his house in it about 82/83. Thing really weight transferred! Had ladder bars and a floater for the rear back then and an auto. He then switched to a Mustang and was working at a Ford dealership.

[ponyakr]

Any idea what happened to that '73 after Glen sold it to the college kid ?

[Skip Fix]

I just remember the 74 might have been before I moved back to Houston.

[sdbob]

From history I have the first SS win at Nationals was a 58 Pontiac. Ill need to look for driver.

[ponyakr]

Well, I think I've touched on this a little. But, I wanna drill down a little deeper into it.

I understand that many class racers are not willing to give up any info that might help a possible opponent.

But, maybe there are a few here that, for whatever reason, can & are willing to give a few behind the scenes details.

I suppose the subject might be LITTLE things that are, or could be done, to reduce ET slightly, for heads-up & record runs.

Thru the years, I've read of stuff like running thinner oil or grease, in places like engine, rear end, & wheel bearings.

Also have read of running max reasonable air pressure in tires, that will still hook up, in order to reduced rolling resistance, after launch.

What about disabling rear brakes, on tracks with ample shut-down area, in order to reduce pad-to-rotor drag ?

Now here's what I really wanna talk about. I've noticed that a lot of SS cars run big tires, like 14x32 or larger. I understand why most guys would want max traction at all times, even when track conditions are bad.

BUT, let's assume, for this post, that the track conditions are great, and the driver knows for sure that the car will hook 100%, with much smaller tires than it usually runs. Do(have) any SS racers used smaller tires, in order to run a hair quicker, for a heads-up or record run ?

Maybe that's a ridiculous question. I don't know. Sounds reasonable to me, considering all the other things I've read about class racer going to great lengths & expense, for very small ET gains.

Here's why I ask this about smaller tires. We all know that some of the Stockers are running 8's on 9" tires. But, being an old school kind of guy. Lets consider some 9 sec BBC powered Stockers. There are several BBC powered '69 Camaro & Nova SS cars that can run in the 9's. They must do it with 9" tires, & CalTrac type traction devices.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

So, is there any reason why some of the low 10 sec to mid 9 sec SS cars could not run a wee bit quicker on 9" tires than on 14x32 or larger tires ? Again, this is on a sticky track with good conditions, & just to run a bit quicker for a heads-up or record run. It's hard for me to believe that a racer with lots of money wouldn't carry some smaller tires, that he had tested on his car, for just such occasions.

If nobody ever does this, some of you long time racers please explain why.

Are there V8 powered 10-flat & quicker SS cars that run 9" tires, all the time ?

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by sdbob

From history I have the first SS win at Nationals was a 58 Pontiac. Ill need to look for driver.

That may be so. Don't know. But, before around '67 or so, Super Stock was not an official NHRA class. The A/SA, A/S classes & above were called "Top Stock", NOT Super Stock.

Now there were probably individual racers that called some of those higher classes Super Stock. But, when you look up the history, the B/S & lower classes were called Junior Stock, at least by most. All higher classes were called Top Stock. Some of the other Top Stock classes were S/S, S/SA, OS/S, A/FX, & B/FX.

Some of this changed later in the '60's. The FX classes went wild, eventually becoming Funny Car.

I suppose the Top Stock class separated & morphed into SS, Modified Production, Pro Stock, & Funny Car.

After 1981, MP was sorta reduced & incorporated into SS.

http://northwestvets.com/blog2/2010/...ed-eliminator/

[ponyakr]

Just looked over my list of SS Pontiacs, that have raced in the last couple of years.

There are only a couple of dozen, about equally divided between GT cars & reg SS cars. And, quite a few of these cars run a very limited schedule.

So, compared the the many hundreds or thousands of active SS cars, Pontiac powered SS cars are an extremely small percentage of the total.

To me, that's one of the main reasons why it's such a big deal when a Pontiac wins it's class, sets a record, wins a race, or qualifies near the top of the list. And, as I've probably said, it's one of the main reasons for even having special threads devoted entirely to Pontiac V8 powered Stock/SS cars.

Another reason for taking a closer look at what Pontiacs have done, & are doing, is because there are now so many different brands/combos that are so much more competitive, many of which are much cheaper to build & maintain.

But, for those with enuff money to spend, there are still a few Pontiac combos that can be competitive, in heads-up runs.

[ponyakr]

There are quite a few combos that can run under the index without major funding. Not talkin a cheap street build.

The thought just crossed my mind: What would make a good "dime rocket", Pontiac V8 powered SS car, using a 350 or larger engine ? In other words, what might be some of the Pontiac SS combos that might be easier to get under the index, without spending thousands on head work.

I've mentioned the Larry Maxwell '68 GT Bird that runs a '74 350 engine. Don't know how cheap it was to build. Don't even know what the min total cost is, that would be considered a "dime rocket" SS car. Just thinkin about it, I can't see that it would cost any more than building a Stocker that would run more than a half sec under.

Assuming that the correct roller cam, alum intake, converter & rear gears would get a car down to the index, or very near it, without major expense. But hey, I could be wrong.

So, for you Pontiac guys here who love to figure out how much power certain engines might make, what are some Pontiac 350 & larger Pontiac V8 combos you'd consider the easiest/cheapest to get at least even with the SS index ?

A few possible 400 engines might be a:

(1) '69 350hp GTO engine, with a 306hp factor in SS & 310hp in GT.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) '74 225hp with a 290hp factor in SS & GT.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

(3) '77 180hp with a 285hp factor in SS, 289hp in GT/auto.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

I suppose the best 350 prospects for SS are:

(1) '74 200hp with a 250hp factor in a SS Ventura, or 256hp in GT/auto.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) '77 350 with a 246hp factor in a SS Bird, or 250hp in GT/auto.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

Possible 455 engines might be a;

(1) '70 360hp GTO with a 335hp factor for SS & GT.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) '73 & '74 250hp with a 310hp factor for SS & GT.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

Not saying these are the ONLY choices. But there are cars out there that run these combos. I purposely left out the round port engines.

For a lower cost engine, I assume the '77 400 might be a little cheaper, because of the price of 6x-8 head cores. A 350 might be a little cheaper, because a good core block is real cheap. Some have been given away. And some have been scrapped, because nobody would buy, or even pick up for free. Most Pontiac street guys just will not settle for a 350 block engine. They gotta have more cubes.

So, with all the other correct parts, how much head work would be required to produce enuff power just to run the index, with some of these combos ? From what I've read here, that seems to be the big cost item, to go really quick. So, how much is a LEGAL, Go-Slow, head job, that will make enuff power to just barely run under the index. ?

Don't know the exact head rules for SS. I think some limited porting is allowed.

Maybe some here can give us the details, as stated in the NHRA rule book. Some have posted that to make big power, the head work would cost maybe $10k, or more. BUT, I'm talkin about gettin by as cheap as possible, to just run barely under the index.

Some might ask why anybody would wanna do that. I ask, why not ? If you live in an area where they have lots of class racing, a SS car that will match it's index can win any big race, if they don't encounter a same-class heads-up run.

If it's not an all-out build, you could also run some of the Big Bucks bracket races in your area. So, it could be a dual purpose car.

Keep in mind, that in SS, you can run a tranny brake, any roller cam, and big tires, if needed.

Since there are lots of 9 sec Stockers running 9" slicks, with CalTrac springs & bars, I'd say a slow SS combo should be able to get by without big tires & fancy suspension.

Some of the above mentioned engines have a lower hp factor, because of having less compression than an earlier year engine of the came cubic inch. So, what I'd like for you engine building gurus to do is figure out which of the engines mentioned might make a more competitive engine, in SS form.

For example: A '69 400 engine will have a lot more CR than a '77 400 engine. So, will the higher CR, plus the larger exhaust valves, make enuff difference to offset the higher hp factor ?

And, what about the difference between the high CR '70 455 & the lower CR '73 455 ? Are the compression & 1.77 valves enuff to make up the hp factor difference ?

[Stan Weiss]

Is it just me or does anyone else get an Error when they click on any of the http://www.classracerinfo.com\Engine.... links?

Stan

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Is it just me or does anyone else get an Error when they click on any of the http://www.classracerinfo.com\Engine.... links?

Stan

I just clicked on all the links. They all go to the correct page on the Class Racer Info site, for me.

Hey, maybe you have to sign up & become a member of that site, in order to see the info. But, I've posted links to that site before, & nobody ever mentioned that they couldn't see the info.

If these links won't work for others, I need to know, so that I can just list the pertinent info, rather than posting links that don't work.

[grandam1979]

Error 404 for me

[ponyakr]

Just for kicks, why don't one or both of you guys sign up on the site, & see if the links work then.

classracerinfo.com

Meanwhile, I'll list some of the important info.


400 engines.

Max bore 4.205. Max stroke 3.765 on all these

(1) '69 350hp GTO engine.

16 or 48 heads. min chamber volume 65cc.

(2) '74 225hp

4X or 4C heads. min chamber vol 88.2cc

(3) '77 180hp 400

6X heads. min chamber volume 89.06cc

350 engines

Max bore 3.957. Max stroke 3.765 on both these

(1) '74 200hp.

46 or 4C heads. min chamber vol 86.2cc

(2) '77 170hp.

6X heads. min chamber vol 91.11cc

455 engines

Max bore 4.233. Max stroke 4.229 on these

(1) '70 360hp GTO engine.

64 heads. min chamber vol 75cc

(2) '73-'74 250hp

4X heads. min chamber vol 102.3cc

[Stan Weiss]

What it looks like to me is you have written this somewhere else and copy and pasted it here. What happens then is that the full link is no longer in the post and so the page on the web site is not found. 404 Error when the link is clicked.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

When formated correctly like the above link they should work fine.

Stan

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

What it looks like to me is you have written this somewhere else and copy and pasted it here. What happens then is that the full link is no longer in the post and so the page on the web site is not found. 404 Error when the link is clicked.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

When formated correctly like the above link they should work fine.

Stan

I just went back & edited the post, & re-posted all the links, & then tried all the links. They all work for me. Try one more time & see if they work for ya'll.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I just went back & edited the post, & re-posted all the links, & then tried all the links. They all work for me. Try one more time & see if they work for ya'll.

Yes they now do work for me.

Thank You
Stan

[johnta1]

Thanks for the links, ponyakr!


I'm surprised they use the same intake/exhaust port cc's for the 455 SD head as the 4X heads in 73/74? (156/142 cc's)