[unruhjonny]

wow!
some great posts!

Before I read some of that I was going to suggest that the date might be important to know, since a dealer number is just (as I have understood it) a number for the franchise;
And franchises can move locations - which would explain the OP's original confusion about location...

I very recently was on a search for a dealer badge for my car and came across THIS thread - in it, there is a HUGE list of dealers - but they are only Canadian GM franchises...

[Simple Man]

Concerning different addresses, when I was growing up, Gates Town and Country Chevrolet was located at 666 W McKinley, Mishawaka IN. Later, in the 80's, with the connotations associated with 666, they changed the address to 660 W McKinley. Same building, nothing moved but the numbers.

[johnta1]

Brut, I have it as 23 103 Di Guilio Pontiac 4411 Williams St Fremont CA?
(notice spelling of name)


Is yours right or what was submitted to me?

[johnta1]

unruhjonny, that is the Canadian Pontiac site I used. They had quite a few Canadian dealers, but it has slacked off to just pictures now.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Brut, I have it as 23 103 Di Guilio Pontiac 4411 Williams St Fremont CA?
(notice spelling of name)


Is yours right or what was submitted to me?

John, you'll want to change it to Di Giulio as per the plate frame. Lots of print ads also show it that way.

BTW, I noticed your listing for Mazzei Pontiac also shows Mazzel? with the question mark.

I researched that one many years ago and reported it to Sean Mattingly. I recall it being misspelled as Mazzel at one time. At the time, they were still I biz. Of course gone now but no need to show the incorrect spelling. This was probably a misread of PHS records which aren't always very legible. And Mazzel probably sounded more logical than Mazzei.

[John V.]

Some info about the Di Giulio brothers that started the Pontiac dealership.

http://www.tricityvoice.com/articledisplay.php?a=2351

[brut4s]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Brut, I have it as 23 103 Di Guilio Pontiac 4411 Williams St Fremont CA?
(notice spelling of name)


Is yours right or what was submitted to me?

The one I sent is correct. The picture is a dealer license plate frame and correct.

[brut4s]

Originally Posted by John V.

Some info about the Di Giulio brothers that started the Pontiac dealership.

http://www.tricityvoice.com/articledisplay.php?a=2351

I've read that also. Pretty cool read. I've been searching for re conditioned frames. Not easy to come by and not cheap. I have one of the ones that was on my car when I bought it from the original owner but it's broken.

[johnta1]

The one I sent is correct. The picture is a dealer license plate frame and correct.

Thanks!


Pic didn't show on my browser yesterday.


Thanks John on the extra info and I also corrected the spelling on both dealers.

[Bobalong]

Somewhere I have paperwork from "Sturgeon Pontiac Nissan" Owensboro Ky, which according to Google search was bought by
Don Moore Sr bought the dealership in 1986.

My really fuzzy copy from GM for my car lists the options, blacked out dealer cost, VIN.
Closer inspection shows it's the GMAC
form, where the GTO is being sold to GMAC. 5-14-70.
There are three other dates from
April 70, can't cipher what they represent.

Dealer Order 72163

Any of this info of value to anyone ?
Previous owner gave me the paperwork, along with a repop window sticker from 20+ years ago.

Not sure how he knew the car originated from Sturgeon Pont. He was third owner.

[johnta1]

Can you post a pic of them?


Sounds like the PHS except probably from Pontiac when they were free.


The dates at the bottom would be for Date Shipped, Date of Note and Date of Execution probably?


The dealer codes and name/address are usually at the bottom left of the form?

[Bobalong]

The dealer info is so fuzzy I can barely decipher the numbers / letters in the small print.

But here's my best shot at what I think it says.

GMAC code (really blurry)211

Very bottom left 09 636

Sturgeon Pontiac Inc
1705 W Second St
Owensboro Ky 42302

this address is beside those numbers.

Still at bottom, center of page (8!/2 x 11) 309 636 . . . .these numbers are open to interpretation, really fuzzy

[johnta1]

309 636 is the dealer codes (and 09 636), plus that is the dealer name.


Pics from Bob (full phs inline):

[johnta1]

I'd have to look at some notes to see what the GMAC Code meant.
(211)


Mainly for accounting purposes I think?
(along with the date codes for the date of note and execution)


The PPA502xxx to the right of the date codes is useful sometimes.
The 1st P is for customer/dealer ordered (I think)
2nd P is for the plant which is P in this case (Pontiac main plant)
the A is for accounting also, list of codes somewhere in my notes.
(from BVZ I think? or John V)

Found this (from John V):
A - GMAC Wholesale Credit

I'll add that dealer in a few.


Thanks for the pics!

[Heybuck]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I would be very happy if more people sent in their dealer codes!!!


I have mentioned this quite a few times, but usually get no response.


Heybuck I would be interested in any codes you have.

Here's my information John.

The window sticker is quite aged and almost certainly is the original to the car. It came to me in a large folder of information that appeared to have remained with the car from day 1. When I received my PHS folder it also contained the same copy of the window sticker.

The salesman's business card was pinned to the window sticker. It clearly shows the business address as 625 Blossom Hill Road, Los Gatos. As I mentioned in the thread previously, I actually called the number shown on the card and Jerry Ginney's widow answered the call. The was about year 2000, shortly after I got the car. She was delighted to hear from me especially when I told her that one of Jerry's cars he had sold was now in Australia. She was a lovely chatty lady who I fear has probably long passed on.

The PHS clearly shows the dealer code as 23 350

Thanks so much for all your efforts. I was pleased to be able to contribute via Paypal.

Regards

Ian

[johnta1]

Thanks, Ian.
Appreciate the paypal.

[muscle_collector]

didn't realize they would put the California emissions on the window sticker.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I'd have to look at some notes to see what the GMAC Code meant.
(211)


Mainly for accounting purposes I think?
(along with the date codes for the date of note and execution)


The PPA502xxx to the right of the date codes is useful sometimes.
The 1st P is for customer/dealer ordered (I think)
2nd P is for the plant which is P in this case (Pontiac main plant)
the A is for accounting also, list of codes somewhere in my notes.
(from BVZ I think? or John V)

Found this (from John V):
A - GMAC Wholesale Credit

I'll add that dealer in a few.


Thanks for the pics!

John, the GMAC Dealer Code is the code that GMAC knew the dealer by. My wife has a casual friend that is married to a guy who spent his career with GMAC, retired maybe 10-15 years ago? Anyway, I've picked his brain a couple times, I recently told him I would bring him a PHS doc for him to go over with me. Not sure when I'll see him again but will try to remember to show him a record or 2.

He explained that not all dealers qualified for GMAC wholesale credit, those that didn't would need to find their own way to finance their purchases from PMD (or whatever Div.).

Those that did got a sweetheart deal to finance their purchases. The company I worked for in the '80s and '90s used a financing plan for its dealers that was patterned after the GM model so I already had a pretty good grasp of the way it works.

Basically, the franchise agreement with PMD gave the dealer rights to purchase vehicles from PMD. The wholesale credit agreement with GMAC gave the dealer a line of credit in order to pay for the vehicles.

The basic functioning of the plan enabled PMD to be paid essentially at the moment the vehicle shipped. They were paid by GMAC. Then the dealer owed GMAC. If he sold the car quickly and paid off the note immediately, there was no interest charged. As I recall it from the company I worked for, there were tax advantages to setting up the financing scheme this way. And of course, it helped the dealer keep his costs down so he could be very competitive.

You have it right for the decoding of the Invoice No. 1st character "P" meant the car was already sold to the ordering dealer when built (no way to know if the dealer had in turn already sold it to a retail customer or if he was ordering the car for his own inventory). 1st character "Z" would indicate a car that had not initially been sold to a dealer when first shipped, it was stored in a Zone storage facility (company use cars also were in the same category but most were not to be used, they were just Zone Stock awaiting future sale to a Zone dealer). In some cases, PHS has the initial Invoice record for the VIN when it was charged to the Zone, then the record for when it was sold to a dealer. Usually though they only have the last record when it was wholesaled out of Zone Stock to a dealer.

The 3rd character "A" indicates Sales Class A, a dealer with a GMAC wholesale credit line. "B" would indicate a dealer that had to use some other credit (like his local bank). Either way, PMD was paid immediately upon shipment. There are a couple other known Sales classes but these are the main two. If you compare the Invoices for an "A" sale vs. a "B" sale, you will see some differences in the form.

For the "A" class, you will see that the "Date of Execution" of the note is the same date as the "Date Shipped". The "Date of Note" is 4 days later, which allowed for transit time. Then the "Interest From" start date was 20 days after that. This was the incentive to the dealer to sell cars quickly and pay off GMAC.

The last 6 digits of the Invoice No. were just assigned in numerical order by PMD. I believe the highest Invoice Nos. for the '70 Model Year were around 720000 as PMD unloaded the last of the unsold inventory after the '71 Model Year began.

I don't believe the Invoice Nos. match to the total no. of vehicles produced and sold during a given Model Year. I think Invoice Nos. may have been issued for certain reasons that didn't involve a new vehicle, only explanation for why vehicle production nos. won't exactly match Invoice Nos. for a given Model Year.

The blacked out boxes for the costs, key codes, etc. indicates this record came direct from PMD when they used to supply these for free. That info was still considered "sensitive" I guess so they blacked it out.

Today, PHS will sell you the record without blacking out that information.

[fiedlerh]

Does anybody have a readable invoice from from the 70's? The typed in info is clear enough, but some of the titles for the boxes are illegible.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

fiedlerh
this one is Very Good
Download and enlarge as needed - it magnifies real well.