[John V.]

Amazing what you can discover on the 'net.

The car dealer at 2556 Charlestown Rd. in New Albany, Indiana was once called Floyd County Sales and sold Desotos. No idea what time frame. No idea if that was their only brand. Production of Desotos ended in late 1960, last of them as '61 models.

Perhaps the dealership switched to Pontiacs at that time? Still checking on the spelling of the Pontiac-Cadillac dealership name.

[johnta1]

The Dealer Code on this Billing History is 19 372 per the punch outs.

Should be 9 372?

[John V.]

John, yes, my bad.

Punch outs read 09 372.

Cincinnati Zone, same as Louisville (New Albany just across the river from Louisville).

[dld]

Interesting that the verbiage on this repro Window Sticker shows "Engine Fan-HD" for code 534 while the earlier one (that I expressed a question about) reads "Engine Fan & Fan Clutch".

Very unlikely that PMD used two different verbiages thru the year on the Window Sticker for the code 534 option. "Engine Fan-HD" is more likely the correct verbiage for this option (regardless of what Fan was installed, since the actual Fan that qualified as the HD option differed depending on the application, for example the HD Fan option for the 6 cyl was different from the HD fan option installed in a GTO but the same code and description would have appeared on the Window Sticker although the SRP may have varied).



I don't know if it would matter as to the verbiage. However these are different build locations. BF and PON . BF a BOP-Chev plant

[dld]

The 1965 (power team selection chart) states that the wide box was not available w/o 3.90 or 4.30

To Muddy the water a little more the (65 order form) states that 582 or GTO . code
534 H.D. fan was N.A.






You could get 3.90 gears in a 4 spd GTO without the close ratio M21 trans. But you could not order the special equipment close ratio M21 trans without also ordering the 3.90 gears.

[Pontirag]

Seymore Thanks but I'll pass. Looking at one car will not convince me that any one person is right. And yes I do have opinions and I am careful to separate them from any statement where they might be mistaken for facts. I would never consider myself the do all end all final arbitrator of authenticity. and niether should john.

seen this to much in the corvette scene where one person who can quote this or that part number and command authority. almost ruined it for alot of people. what was determined was to separate the personalities from th facts and then based on the facts deside what was correct and judging reflected that. It was understood that cars occasionaly come down the line and have unusual combinations of equipment. It does not change what should be correct and it is on the individul to prove his car is correct with the different equipment. Otherwise points toward correctness are lost. as they should be.

The problem I have is that I mearly stated that a notched fan was correct for a car with power steering and I was set apon by john. My statement was correct so why was I set apon? because I unsurped Johns power and authority to arbitrate as to what is wrong and what is right? Ore who should make that determination? I have not relinquished my right to make correct statements on this web site.

with certain personalities in power it no longer becomes an issue of what is factualy correct and what is not. it becomes an arbitrary and subjective entitlement bestowed by one upon another. The facts no longer determine correctness, John does. And that can ruin it for everybody.

He used to be pretty good with the part numbers but and was seen as credible on this web site but these little episodes demonstate that we must lean back towards the part numbers themselves to determine correctness and supporting documentation to determine correctness. Those sources of factual and correct information should be the determining standard of accuracy and correctness. no tpersonality or cult figures.

If a panel of judges like Tieman. Zazzarine and roberst and a few others (as an Rxample) could get together and review the evidence and come to a conclusion then i wouls except that. If John would submit his pontiac/gm documentation to such a panel and win out then so be it. but anything less than a dispashonate and objective evaluation of the facts does a dis service to the hobie and those in it. And yes, John you may have to give up some of your arbitrary power to lord it over us peons.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by dld

To Muddy the water a little more the (65 order form) states that 582 or GTO . code
534 H.D. fan was N.A.

Here's Eric's take on that, from earlier in the thread (post 24):

Originally Posted by gtoric

The 5-blade H.D. fan is the standard fan blade on the 382 GTO option package, therefore not offered as a separate option for the GTO. 534 is indicated on Keith's build sheet because it is a component that needed to be installed on his GTO as a part of the 382 option group, but the fan was not ordered by the customer. Option 534 is a special order item only for 326 ci cars w/o A/C.

The 7-blade fan is a special order item only for 6-cylinder cars w/o A/C. 644 is a standard component on 6-cylinder cars ordered with A/C.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

Seymore Thanks but I'll pass. Looking at one car will not convince me that any one person is right. And yes I do have opinions and I am careful to separate them from any statement where they might be mistaken for facts. I would never consider myself the do all end all final arbitrator of authenticity. and niether should john...


... The problem I have is that I mearly stated that a notched fan was correct for a car with power steering and I was set apon by john. My statement was correct so why was I set apon? because I unsurped Johns power and authority to arbitrate as to what is wrong and what is right? Ore who should make that determination? I have not relinquished my right to make correct statements on this web site.

Thanks for the clarification.

I believe your statement is correct: notched fans are correct for a car with power steering.

K

[dld]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Thanks for the clarification.

I believe your statement is correct: notched fans are correct for a car with power steering.

K

Keith is that to say that all p/s cars had that fan blade? If yes Wye?

[John V.]

dld, I believe you are referring to the Power Team Chart that was created by PHS? I do not think there is a corresponding document published by PMD in '65.

I think you meant to write the wide box was not available with 3.90 or 4.30 according to the Chart? You wrote w/o.

But according to PMD literature, I believe the correct lit would show you could get the 3.90 with the wide ratio 4 spd.

This is demonstrated by the fact that the 3.90 gears were available for any GTO, 4 bbl or Tri-Power, this documented by the PMD Axle Charts for '65.

The close ratio trans required Tri-Power.

The sales literature remarked that you could also obtain 4.11 or 4.33 gear sets from the dealer. But it cautioned that you should order (from the factory), the 3.90 axle and close ratio.

Now this itself would seem strange since the dealer installed gear sets should not have really depended on the trans. But that is what the sales lit said.

But there was no tie in between the 3.90 axle and the close ratio. As evidenced by two '65 GTO's that were referenced in this thread, it was really not uncommon to mate the code 9 wide ratio box to the 3.90 axle.

We've discussed the confusing '65 Sales Codes for the HD Fan options in the past. I can't explain it.

This was a decided change from '64. In '64, there was no optional HD Fan listed on the regular order form.

When the 3.90 gears were ordered, the HD Fan was mandatory (same as in '65, regardless if the trans was wide ratio 4 spd or close ratio 4 spd which became available late in '64 as a Special Equipment option with same mandatory options as in '65).

But in '64, the 19.5" dia. HD Fan on a GTO was coded as 644.

In '65, the Sales Code 644 was listed as the HD 7 blade clutched fan on the regular order form. It was apparently available for any non-GTO V8 without A/C, meaning you could have gotten the same 18" dia. clutched fan that was std. with the GTO as an option with the 326.

Meanwhile, the sales code 534 was placed on the All Series Special Equipment Order Form. I believe the purpose of this option was to offer a HD fan for 6 cyl that you were allowed to order.

The only explanation I can give for why the form says NA with GTO (aside from a typo/error) is that perhaps you could not order the HD Fan indiscriminately on a GTO.

The only way to get it may have been as a mandatory option whenever you ordered the 3.90 axle whereby it was automatically added to the order at extra cost.

Whether that is true or not, I cannot say. I'm not aware of any '65 GTO builds that show the code 534 that don't have the 3.90 axle, doesn't mean they don't exist.

As far as the verbiage being different from Plant to Plant, again not certain.

Fremont was a BOP Plant that also built Chevy's, not a BOP-Chevy Plant. Back then, the Assembly Plants were controlled by the Car Divs. The BOP Divisions controlled their own home Plants and shared satellite Plants. Chevy Div. controlled many, many Plants across the country, including A body Plants in Kansas City, MO and in Baltimore.

The layout formats for the '64 Window Stickers were different between Fremont and all others, KC & Balt were same but different from Pontiac (the PHS repros follow the Pontiac format, not correct for the others). I don't think there are many/any verbiage differences however. Fremont did list the GTO option as "GRAN TURISMO OMOLO" while the Pontiac WS wrote it out as "GRAN TURISMO OMOLOGATO".

Could have had more variance in '65, I simply don't know.

Pontirag, not sure who pissed in your corn flakes but I can assure you, I did not intend to "set upon you".

You wrote, "Bigpop

notched fans are indeed correct for PS cars

Some people have a notched fan on a non ps car and cannot come to grips with the possibility that in a 45 year racing career one factory component might be replaced with another better one. Dont dwell on it. notched fans are correct for PS cars."

You only specifically addressed the PS cars. If I understood him correctly, Bigpop was wondering about a manual steer car.

My question for you was not about whether the notched fan was correct for a PS car but whether you believed the notched fan was incorrect for a manual steer car. I thought my question was clear. I wrote, "Pontirag, are you suggesting that a non-notched 19.5" dia. clutched fan was used in production for the '65 GTO with manual steering?

Not talking about the 18" dia. clutched fan used for most '65 GTO applications."

Since I had already posted in this thread information to suggest the likelihood that the notched 19.5" dia. fan was used as O.E. in '65 on manual steer cars, I wondered if you had evidence to the contrary.

I was not looking to make a personal attack and said so in my following post.

If you, Scott Tiemann, or any of hundreds of hobbyists have better info than I, you will find that I am always willing to learn. The '65 is not my strongest suit but since it is closely aligned with my own passion, the '64, I have never hesitated to offer to help others in this hobby by passing along info as carefully as I know how to do.

When I questioned you, I was trying to learn if you had some evidence that would help to resolve a parts issue that others here have been interested in resolving.

As far as I know, nobody has disputed the fact that notched 19.5" dia. fans were needed for PS cars. I certainly never questioned that, mainly because smarter hobbyists than me figured out the reason the fan was notched.

I simply tried to explain why the notched 19.5" dia. fan seemed to be used on manual steer cars too. It sounded, to me, that you might have knowledge or evidence that was superior to mine. If so, it would be interesting to me to learn of it. And I'm sure others also.

A lot of what I find fun in this hobby is to try to figure out why certain things happened. When the evidence points to notched 19.5" dia. fans being commonplace on '65 manual steer GTOs when logic says they did not need to be notched, I go looking for answers. And I oftentimes will tell fellow hobbyists that whatever conclusions I have reached are subject to change if better info comes along.

Put it this way. If I had concluded 20 years ago that the notched fan was only used on PS cars, but then found evidence of notched fans on numerous manual steer GTOs and big cars, I would question my own conclusion and look for a better explanation.

I don't think anybody here thinks I wield any power. I'm not looking to sit on any panel of judges.

A lot of what I put out here is with an expectation that it will be critiqued. I learn new stuff about the GTO all the time.

Only way I know how to do that is ask questions and dig up evidence, in other words do the research. And in the end, try to come to logical conclusions.

I don't see this as life & death, so I only do it because I am passionate about the hobby. I try to be dispassionate and objective with the research, but I get excited anytime I learn something interesting. That's just me.

Keith, I think Eric went back and corrected some of that info. The 5 blade fan was not std. with the GTO, the GTO got the 18" dia. 7 blade clutched fan as standard. Doublecheck subsequent posts.

[dld]

Good reply John. We agree on the fan.

AFAIK
As for Baltimore It was a Chevrolet plant before it was a A body Buick Pontiac plant. The A body olds was only built there for half of 64. The chevy side was called the motor side and did dress the chevy engines . the Pont and Buick engines came to them complete less drive belts and pulleys.

[Tom Vaught]

I knew Paul Zazarine as a friend, I know Chuck Roberts as a friend, and I have known Scott Tiemann for many many years and have been to his restoration shop probably a 100 times since he built the shop.

Everyone makes mistakes occasionally. Pete McCarthy said in his books "it was this way" and later a 100 people came to him with new info that was different from his info. His info was good but it was not the ONLY info.

Same deal with Scott. I remember Scott before he started the restoration game and worked for TRW. He was fortunate enough to gain access to a lot of collector cars and people's information, (like Randy William's stuff when he restored Randy's SD cars.) That being said I have never heard Scott ever say that "he was the only one with the right info". I do not see that attitude in Scott Tiemann.

Have you actually ever met Scott? If you have met him, have you ever been to his shop? Just wondering. You act like he is a God.

Bad mouthing, John, buys you nothing. John is trying to help.
If I knew what your first name was I would call you by your first name as a courtesy. Calling Keith, "Seymore" does what for the post?

That being said, you bring a lot to this forum. I am happy that you are here. I learn every day on this forum.

Tom Vaught

[Pontirag]

I treat nobody like a god niether you scot mr Z or mr Roberts. I respect the information and knowlege they have and the effort and contributions they have made.

John. call it what you will but you attacked me for stating that notched fans were used on PS cars. This is the verbal shell game you play to discredit others so that you alone are the arbitrator of right and wrong. Not fact but right and wrong.

I call Seymore Seymore for two reasons to identify whome i am refering to or addressing and because it is simply too involved to refer to him as Kieth Seymore. Part of the shell game to defect attention away from your smoke and mirrors? stick to the issue.

Thanks for the sentiment about the late mr Zazzarine. No holds barred huh John?
Just for the record I hold he and mr roberst in pretty high regard for the primier work they did back in the day. Some thing they did that you dis'ed in an earlier rant.

Mc Carthy's info isnt perfect either but at least he risked putting it out ther. he shared and took the chance he might be wrong or that others also had ideas about how its done. I cant find a single post from him where he attacked somebody for having a different opinion never mind having the SAME OPPINION.

Its not mr Zazzarine. Roberts or Tiemann that snipe at people who dare to tread on sacred ground John. I encroached on your turf but My statement was a statement of fact. You yourself agreed but you still gave me a bit of a broad side for wandering out of my lane.

I dont have to meet anybody to respect what they have achieved. I find they are bothered by obsessive fans. (100 Times? and this is just you john. Multiply that by all the other obsessive fans and you wonder how they were able to get any work done. HUH?) I read thier book and I have seen thier restored cars. Its back to the cult of the personality. I dont worship the man. I respect him and his effort and achievment. I recognize the effort that went in to what he achieved.

I respect yours too John as long as you dont wander too far out of your lane with your supositions. My opinion of you means nothing. I am troubled that you might be clouding the FACTS with suposition. It harms you and your body of work. it cast doubt on all the good work you have done. Dont attack people who see things differently than you. Remeber the Wright Brothers? Columbus? NASA? Jonas Saulk? Contribute to a solid foundation of factual information and yoor efforts will be seen in the same lite as Tiemann, Zazzarine and Roberts and the many people i have left off this list.