#21  
Old 06-21-2020, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
The "George Carlin" 70 TA was HD Radiator only

The examples i have from 3/31 through 6/15 with 3.73 all charge $10.53 for Axle-Performance
You have invoices for 4-speed 70 Trans Ams that show the 3.73 Axle as an extra cost option? I think it would show that way if the 3.73 was ordered with an auto or with an M20... but that seemed to be a pretty uncommon mix. And since the "built with" trans doesn't show on the invoice, it makes "decoding" this stuff a bit difficult sometimes.

On M21 Trans Ams, the only thing that's typically on the invoices I've seen/saved is the radiator, even though the 3.73 was mandatory with the trans.

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  #22  
Old 06-21-2020, 11:39 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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I'm thinking the 3.55 was standard axle in Auto and 4spd Non-AC cars, so the Performance Axle code/charge would/should get triggered in either scenario of transmission type with 3.73 axle.

But i haven't come across an Automatic with it yet.

These two were 4 speed Cars
The March/Zone car was a PY member
The April car was a really nice #'s car from eBay years ago
The 3rd car/June car is mine (4 spd) but i don't have a digital copy of the Invoice for it to post it with these two.

Mine is practically identical to the April car Invoice. fwiw



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  #23  
Old 06-21-2020, 11:48 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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This is the "George Carlin / Comedian" car.
HD Radiator with 3.55 axle
A PY member owned, or still owns, this #'s 4spd car

The B-a-T car was likely born a 3.55 axle car with HD Radiator option like the Carlin TA, from what i can tell.
It was a cheap option and a worthy choice for any car with any axle.

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  #24  
Old 06-22-2020, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by keith k View Post
The entire underbody on that car is a little frightening ... look close and you'll see where they stitched in bits and pieces of floorpan patches, too.

Another thing I found interesting... the PHS for the car shows the HD Radiator "option". Generally that only appears on cars that were M21/3.73 equipped, because the heavy duty radiator was mandatory with that combo. After the first few months of production Pontiac started charging extra for it, even though the trans and axle ratio were "no charge".

Yet the car has a COX (3.55) axle instead of the COZ 3.73. I've seen other factory axle screw ups on these cars, so who knows...., but this car has enough "thrown together" elements that the axle isn't as easy to dismiss.
True. Mine is a 03C build and it has the HD radiator, M21 and COZ rear. The radiator was extra charge.

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  #25  
Old 06-22-2020, 01:43 PM
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I have rather enjoyed this side discussion of the HD rad being a seperate option or indicitive of COX/M21;
Is it possible that there was a memo issued, after which the HD rad included these parts, or is the price charged possibly the indication of it if was an option "group" versus single item?

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2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #26  
Old 06-22-2020, 02:30 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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I never knew anything about it being a grey area until Keith brought it up.
Knew mine had the Performance Axle charge, so looked through files for others.
I'm just in on it for the learning

George Carlin's car was told to be 3.55/M20 , with just the HD Radiator as an option.
Only have that partial invoice - no visible date on it.

Here is another, a Canadian Export, with HD Radiator option.
If we had the GM of Canada Report on this car it would spell out the Transmission ID and the Axle Ratio - but don't have that luxury on this example.

Maybe someone will recognize it and perhaps have the GM of C on it.
* i don't remember whose car this was or which tranny it had, at all *

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  #27  
Old 06-22-2020, 03:44 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
I have rather enjoyed this side discussion of the HD rad being a seperate option or indicitive of COX/M21;
Is it possible that there was a memo issued, after which the HD rad included these parts, or is the price charged possibly the indication of it if was an option "group" versus single item?

It was my belief based on what I’ve read over the years that the HD radiator was a REQUIRED option to get the 3.73 not part of the package. The only time you won’t see the HD radiator on the PHS is if it’s an A/C car as that was included in the total price for the package.
That being said my 04A car also has the HD radiator billed out as an option with both the 3.73 AND the M-21.


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  #28  
Old 06-22-2020, 03:45 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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I can only post one pic at a time cause I’m a cheap S.O.B. and won’t pay Talpatalk more money for the app. Here is the second part of the PHS


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  #29  
Old 06-22-2020, 04:23 PM
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Yes, I understand what your'e saying, but as I've understood even regular options function differently with a different model.
Since the 'Firebird 400' of 1970 came standard with a 3 speed Muncie, and a three core rad, anything more would have been reflected as an upcharge.
What differs model to model is if one 'charge' option requires another, just as you pointed out with the A/C option.
The one thing that really helps out with some cars, as 'Baron' pointed out, is if it was a GM of Canada car, in which case ALL rpo's regaurdless of them being a charged option or included, are listed in the GM of Canada paperwork.
I have both PHS & VVS (GMoC) paperwork for my car, and the '73 Formula that I had for a while.

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2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #30  
Old 06-22-2020, 05:25 PM
eaglesan13 eaglesan13 is offline
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Baron, here's an auto/performance axle PHS (Formula 400).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
I'm thinking the 3.55 was standard axle in Auto and 4spd Non-AC cars, so the Performance Axle code/charge would/should get triggered in either scenario of transmission type with 3.73 axle.

But i haven't come across an Automatic with it yet.

These two were 4 speed Cars
The March/Zone car was a PY member
The April car was a really nice #'s car from eBay years ago
The 3rd car/June car is mine (4 spd) but i don't have a digital copy of the Invoice for it to post it with these two.

Mine is practically identical to the April car Invoice. fwiw



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  #31  
Old 06-22-2020, 05:52 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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The Formula's have a different context in their invoicing and we can't really use them as examples working towards a grey area on these TA's that are - or might have been - 3.73 axle cars.

But about the Formula's that is noteworthy, was how almost half and half of the 4spd 3.73 axle gear cars were split between M20 and M21.
The TA's may have followed close to that same "take rate".


My opinion - which isn't at all true on the TA - the 3.73 upgrade should have been the same charge/option code as the GTO when they went from 3.55 to 3.90 or 4.33
Axle-Special Order for $2.11

The $10.53 upgrade charge on the TA axle is exorbitant.

It may be like Keith mentioned as one possibility - that the M20 3.73 combo got the $10.53 charge, and the M21 3.73 combo did not.
I think that could be the root factor.
idunno
But would be cool to figure it all out with brass tacks nailed along the edges.

The 03C car that 72projectbird has - would be good to know the invoice date and see where it falls in with the 3/31 and 4/10 invoices.

I have never checked to see whether my Ram3 4spd 3.73 TA has M20 or M21.
That one has been mothballed for over 30 years now.

  #32  
Old 06-22-2020, 06:15 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglesan13 View Post
Baron, here's an auto/performance axle PHS (Formula 400).
Thanks ! Wow what a List

Interesting about it would be what ratio axle it delivered with.
According to a 70 Formula 400 Automatic Non-AC Buildsheet, 3.07 was standard issue with 400 Auto Non-AC.
But this Buildsheet is NOT a RamAir car, your example is RA.
Thinking the RA Engine put an Automatic Formula to either 3.31 or 3.55 as standard ....
i Don't Know which

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  #33  
Old 06-22-2020, 07:12 PM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
Thanks ! Wow what a List

Interesting about it would be what ratio axle it delivered with.
According to a 70 Formula 400 Automatic Non-AC Buildsheet, 3.07 was standard issue with 400 Auto Non-AC.
But this Buildsheet is NOT a RamAir car, your example is RA.
Thinking the RA Engine put an Automatic Formula to either 3.31 or 3.55 as standard ....
i Don't Know which

Standard ratios for W66 (if I have deciphered it correctly):

L78 & M13 = 3.55
L78 & M20 = 3.55
L78 & M21 = 3.73
L78 & M40 = 3.07*

L78 & M13 & perf axle = n/a
L78 & M20 & perf axle = 3.73
L78 & M40 & perf axle = 3.31*

L78 & M13 & A/C = 3.31
L78 & M20 & A/C = 3.31
L78 & M21 & A/C = n/a
L78 & M40 & A/C = 3.07*

L74 & M13 = 3.55
L74 & M20 = 3.55
L74 & M21 = 3.73
L74 & M40 = 3.55

L74 & M13 & perf axle = n/a
L74 & M20 & perf axle = 3.73
L74 & M40 & perf axle = 3.73

L74 & M13 & A/C = 3.31
L74 & M20 & A/C = 3.31
L74 & M21 & A/C = n/a
L74 & M40 & A/C = 3.31

the assembly manual is a bit confusing regaurding L78/M40 with or without A/C... there seems to be some doubling up, so these are my assertion.

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Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


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2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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  #34  
Old 06-22-2020, 08:47 PM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin View Post
The Formula's have a different context in their invoicing and we can't really use them as examples working towards a grey area on these TA's that are - or might have been - 3.73 axle cars.

But about the Formula's that is noteworthy, was how almost half and half of the 4spd 3.73 axle gear cars were split between M20 and M21.
The TA's may have followed close to that same "take rate".


My opinion - which isn't at all true on the TA - the 3.73 upgrade should have been the same charge/option code as the GTO when they went from 3.55 to 3.90 or 4.33
Axle-Special Order for $2.11

The $10.53 upgrade charge on the TA axle is exorbitant.

It may be like Keith mentioned as one possibility - that the M20 3.73 combo got the $10.53 charge, and the M21 3.73 combo did not.
I think that could be the root factor.
idunno
But would be cool to figure it all out with brass tacks nailed along the edges.

The 03C car that 72projectbird has - would be good to know the invoice date and see where it falls in with the 3/31 and 4/10 invoices.

I have never checked to see whether my Ram3 4spd 3.73 TA has M20 or M21.
That one has been mothballed for over 30 years now.

My formula has the 3.73 gears. The MSRP was 10.53 but the actual charge amount was 7.80 and it was a M-21 trans. Not sure why we can’t compare a ram air formula which is what seems to be the formula of choice is to a T/A.


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  #35  
Old 06-22-2020, 09:03 PM
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"the assembly manual is a bit confusing regaurding L78/M40 with or without A/C... there seems to be some doubling up, so these are my assertion."

Have owned as projects, as well as, have parted several other base 400 4bbl '70 Formulas over the years. 4 of them were T400 factory AC cars & each of those still retained their original 3.07 12 bolts in them. Only one was coded COT (3.07 posi). Have not owned a factory non AC base 400/Turbo 400 '70 Formula.

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  #36  
Old 06-22-2020, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
"the assembly manual is a bit confusing regaurding L78/M40 with or without A/C... there seems to be some doubling up, so these are my assertion."

Have owned as projects, as well as, have parted several other base 400 4bbl '70 Formulas over the years. 4 of them were T400 factory AC cars & each of those still retained their original 3.07 12 bolts in them. Only one was coded COT (3.07 posi). Have not owned a factory non AC base 400/Turbo 400 '70 Formula.
/\ and that's more or less what makes sense, and why I made a guess.
You can see a theme in how the rear fears were done.

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1970 Formula 400
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Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #37  
Old 06-22-2020, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTASSBIRD View Post
My formula has the 3.73 gears. The MSRP was 10.53 but the actual charge amount was 7.80 and it was a M-21 trans. Not sure why we can’t compare a ram air formula which is what seems to be the formula of choice is to a T/A.


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Formulas are straightforward, as Baron noted, because everything is always on the invoice, since the standard trans was a 3-speed manual. So a Formula with a 4-speed will always indicate which one (M20 or M21) on the invoice, and if it has the 3.73 it will always show the Performance Axle as a priced option. Since 3.73s were mandatory with M21, every M21 car will have the Performance Axle option on the invoice. The HD Radiator will always be there on a 3.73 car, too, because it was mandatory with 3.73s. My Formula's invoice is like yours ... M21, 3.73, and HD Rad all itemized separately.

Trans Ams are more difficult for two reasons:
1) Because the transmissions were all "no cost" selections. Unless you got an M21, and then there were some extra costs on the invoice for the mandatory 3.73s and HD Radiator.
2) It seems Pontiac wasn't consistent in how they invoiced this stuff that was mandatory with the M21.

Baron, thanks for posting those invoices. Always interesting. I think odds are as you suggest, that the Carlin car was probably an M21/3.73 car... it just happened to be one of the ones that didn't get billed for the axle.

Here's a build sheet and PHS from another Van Nuys car that shows the 3.73 on the build sheet (and it's an M21 car), but only the HD Radiator on the invoice.
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  #38  
Old 06-23-2020, 01:48 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Great example Keith.
Thats what we need are more Van Nuys TA's with Invoice and Buildsheet,
and more Canadian TA's with Invoice and GM of Canada papers.

From what we have so far, it doesn't look like its going to be date sensitive or plant sensitive. I think we are eventually going to find out that the TA's with the Performance Axle charge are M20 / 3.73 cars.

About half and half (approx) of the Formula 3.73 cars were split between M20 and M21.

And just for reference sake,
the RamIV 4spd from Van Nuys that i have a Buildsheet on is M20 / 3.73

The last tidbit overall though, is i don't think we can solely base these TA's with just HD Radiator as ALL having been built as M21 / 3.73
Most probably were.
Some could have just been ordered for extra cooling (HD Rad)

But if such a car still has its original 3.73 or it's original M21 still in place - or both still in place - then that would be a slam dunk.

I would be afraid to wager either way on this Blue Car about anything really.

John has hinted that the EUN is out of range
So none of the drivetrain may be original to the car if the white gloves came out.
But its still a good looking car up to a certain price point.

Back when a lot of enthusiasts thought the White to Blue ratio was about 20:1 , they went to great lengths to rescue a Blue Car.

  #39  
Old 06-23-2020, 02:55 AM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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In case this has gotten confusing
Or if anyone came in late

What we are crunching is the fact that some RamAir3 70 TA's with 4 speed and 3.73 Axle Gears show it plainly on the Invoice (including the mandatory HD Radiator) -
and some documented 3.73 cars do not - and only show the HD Radiator

We are trying to possibly nail down "why"

The "why" is looking like it relates to whether the car was :

3.73 with M20 Wide Ratio 4spd (Performance Axle Option and HD Rad on Invoice)
or
3.73 with M21 Close Ratio 4spd (Just the HD Radiator on Invoice)

This Blue Car on Bring-A-Trailer was potentially a 3.73 Axle Gear with M21 Close Ratio car -
with it showing only HD Radiator - its a possibility.
That is what brought all this Invoice/Data crunching into the thread.
Its not really just about only this Blue Car though - its going to wind up being another "70 Only Factoid" to add to the list .

  #40  
Old 06-23-2020, 02:15 PM
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update:
with two days to go, this car is up to $35k

I have to give the seller credit, as he keeps posting fantastic pictures, so quabbling deficiencies aside, he is appearing to do his best to ensure the winning bidder gets no surprises.
I especially like how he has lego-shaped magnets all over the bottom of the car spread over four pictures to illustrate that hte bottom of the car isn't full of bondo.

If the current high bidder's name is indicative of anything, it might be someone looking to flip the car.

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Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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