[charlie66]

They say that E85 is 105 octane . I ve been testing my local gas stations and they all have been coming in low at around 50 to 60%. So if E85 is 105 octane what would E60 be? Is there a way to figure this out ?

Thanks..

[johnta1]

Without redesigning the calculator, you can try this one:

Calc Ethanol octane

I used 2 gal for the E85 input and 1 gal for the E10 input.
This gave the 60% ethanol content and showed 96 Octane.

Possibly they are diluting your gasoline?

[mysticmissle]

gas is cheaper than ethanol at the moment, to my knowledge. It would be foolish to add a more expensive component. That being said, I have noticed both my dailys get about 2-3 mpg better with shell gasoline vs gulf or mobil. Maybe there is something else they add. I assume it is because it is diluted less than the other companies.

[johnta1]

It would be foolish to add a more expensive component.

Sure, but this is adding a cheaper product to the expensive one for the same 'octane'?
The main reason I think people buy E85 is for the extra octane, not for the 'price' or for fuel mileage?


Anyway if it is rated as E85 at the pump and it is not E85 coming out, should be illegal?

[charlie66]

Thanks John.
I did see that after i posted about this . But why is the octane set at 100 for the e85? Isnt it 105? I did find one station that had 95%. Im going to to see how that works for me . I dont think 60% is good for me at 30+ psi .. I had water coming out of the overflow making a pass . So i checked the fuel in my tank and it was 60%.

[charlie66]

I pay 1.59 a gallon over her . Thats nothing compared to race gas..

[charlie66]

On that calculator it wont say what 95% is . Is there a formula i can use ? Comes up as 100 octane . It has to be more then that..

[johnta1]

You can change the E85 octane rating. The '100' is a suggestion basically. (as is the other gasoline). The blurb below the calculator explains the 100 octane.

[johnta1]

This calculator just uses octane:

Octane Mix Calc

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Anyway if it is rated as E85 at the pump and it is not E85 coming out, should be illegal?

Well, you would think so. I'm not sure how they get away with that or how or if it's even regulated but I can tell you fudging those numbers has been going on a loooong time.

Way back when I cared, probably more than 25 years ago now, I was testing the 10% at the pumps with those little test kits you could buy. I was finding some stations as high as 17% even back then So you never really knew how much ethanol you were getting from one fill up to the next. So it doesn't surprise me in the least bit now that the E85 isn't all that accurate either.

That's a big reason why I've avoided building an engine to run it. Well that and the fact that it's still not readily available everywhere like they said it would be years ago. Can't stress enough, and have mentioned it many times on here you really need to tune on the side of caution even with E10, unless you want to spend the money for the sensors and computer control these new cars have that senses the amount of ethanol in the gas and adjusts on the fly.

[JLMounce]

It's common for E85 alcohol percentage to fall entering the wintery months. Most of the vehicles that run on the stuff don't actually need all that octane and reducing the mix content makes cold starting in cold temperatures easier.

This is one of the pitfalls of going e85 on a car that actually is using the fuel for its resistance to knock. The regulations on the fuel type allow it's mix to fall to about 60% at the lowest, so it's possible to see large swings in the mix content. If you're running a higher end fuel injection system with an incorporated e85 sensor, it's not as big of a deal. If you're running the stuff through a carb or something like a FiTech, Sniper etc. it becomes more of an issue as the tune is never quite right if the mix is moving.

For people that need the octane, it's probably better to purchase the stuff from a vendor like VP fuels where you know you're getting the correct mix.

[Scott65]

Charlie, do you use a content sensor? If so, you may be able to have the ecu add less timing for lower percentages, or pull timing, as the case may be.

[charlie66]

No i dont Scott. All i have is a tester that i do by hand for now. I check it before i fill up . Its a pita but its what i do. Im going to get a 55 gal drum and fill it at the station that has 95%. Not bad for $88.00. If you buy E98 at 5 gallons it 70 bucks..

[Douglas Willinger]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Sure, but this is adding a cheaper product to the expensive one for the same 'octane'?
The main reason I think people buy E85 is for the extra octane, not for the 'price' or for fuel mileage?


Anyway if it is rated as E85 at the pump and it is not E85 coming out, should be illegal?

Is E-85 octane labeled anywhere? Every place I have seen it, there is no octane decal.

[johnta1]

I don't know about the octane, I think they say E85 which is 85% alcohol (with 15% gasoline)
I have heard some say the percentage can vary some amount, wouldn't think E60 would be within tolerances?


100% Ethanol is rated usually around 106-109 octane.
When mixed with gasoline it may change quite a bit depending on the quality of the gasoline.
(100% gasoline is probably rated at around 87 octane when used for E85)


Use that last calc I posted with #'s above and see what it may be with the different mixtures.

[Douglas Willinger]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I don't know about the octane, I think they say E85 which is 85% alcohol (with 15% gasoline)
I have heard some say the percentage can vary some amount, wouldn't think E60 would be within tolerances?


100% Ethanol is rated usually around 106-109 octane.
When mixed with gasoline it may change quite a bit depending on the quality of the gasoline.
(100% gasoline is probably rated at around 87 octane when used for E85)


Use that last calc I posted with #'s above and see what it may be with the different mixtures.

The name E-85 indicates 85% ethanol. But horrific regulations in the US allow the ethanol content to vary between 51% and 83% ethanol.

Imagine buying aspirin labeled as 81 mg and it could vary to between say 45 and 79mg.

The lack of octane posting likely reflects this, and the horrific variance is about thwarting people with non efi automobiles to easily use it, all to slow ethanol's market share.

Other nations are better at this, E-85 always meaning 85% ethanol. Alas our awful political parties, including the Greens and the Libertarians, seem ok with that.

[Sirrotica]

It all depends upon what base octane of the gasoline is also. If you start with 84 octane gasoline or 93 octane, makes a big difference at the end product.

As FJ says they screw around with their blending at the loading racks depending upon what time of the year it is, what they want to get rid of in their inventory. Having driven a fuel tanker, plus having been around gas station most of my adult life, you never know for sure what they're putting in your tanks. One thing you can count on is whatever they're sending to you is the absolute cheapest fuel they could get away with.

Ethanol is still subsidized by the government, that's why it's so cheap bought at the pumps, as opposed to being bought by the 5/55 gallon container from a race fuel supplier. "We the people" are making up the difference between actual production cost, and what is paid at the pump. This subsidy may end someday, and the real cost of the BS fuel will be seen. Right now it's cheap because it's about green, and pollution, maybe someday we'll find out the real story behind ethanol, and how much it was propped up by subsidies by the US citizens.

Trusting the oil companies to give you an accurate octane number is like trusting most politicians to follow through on their campaign promises.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Fuel is a generic commodity pretty much, if you want to know what your getting you have to buy sealed drums or be in real good with a supplier that buys bulk and fills drums.

[Schurkey]

Direct from the dirtbags at the EPA:

https://www.epa.gov/renewable-fuel-s...ogram/e85-fuel

E85 is a blend of gasoline and denatured ethanol containing up to 85 percent ethanol and is the highest ethanol fuel blend available in the market. E85 can only be used in flex fuel vehicles (FFVs) which are specifically designed to run on this fuel or any gasoline or ethanol blend ranging from E0 to E85.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/tiff2png.c...5CP1001T94.TIF

E85 cannot be used in a conventional gasoline-only engine. Vehicles must be specially designed to run on it.

I was expecting to find confirmation that "E85" was never even intended to "guarantee" 85% alcohol. From the very beginning, E85 was allowed a huge range of gasoline-to-alcohol ratios all sold under one label. However, I haven't found that on the EPA web site.

From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

In the United States, the exact ratio of fuel ethanol to hydrocarbon may vary according to ASTM 5798 that specifies the allowable ethanol content in E85 as ranging from 51% to 83%.[1] This is due to the lower heating value of neat ethanol making it difficult to crank engines in relatively cold climates without pre-heating air intake, faster cranking, or mixing varying fractions of gasoline according to climate. Cold cranking in cold climates is the primary reason ethanol fuel is blended with any gasoline fraction.

I disagree with Wikipedia in this regard: The PRIMARY reason to include some gasoline in the mix is to make it poisonous, so bums, and under-age people don't drink it. (Australia has dealt with a certain class of people who "huff" gasoline; whether they know it's gasoline or whether they think it's mostly alcohol is beyond my experience.)

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Direct from the dirtbags at the EPA:

https://www.epa.gov/renewable-fuel-s...ogram/e85-fuel



https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/tiff2png.c...5CP1001T94.TIF


I was expecting to find confirmation that "E85" was never even intended to "guarantee" 85% alcohol. From the very beginning, E85 was allowed a huge range of gasoline-to-alcohol ratios all sold under one label. However, I haven't found that on the EPA web site.

From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85



I disagree with Wikipedia in this regard: The PRIMARY reason to include some gasoline in the mix is to make it poisonous, so bums, and under-age people don't drink it. (Australia has dealt with a certain class of people who "huff" gasoline; whether they know it's gasoline or whether they think it's mostly alcohol is beyond my experience.)

Huffing gasoline will give you a high without a doubt, also kills millions of brain cells.

The reason gasoline is blended with the raw product E85 at the ethanol plant is to keep people from drinking it. It's the exact same alcohol that is in spirits, and much more pure than what you buy in spirits.

Having hauled the Ethanol from the plants to the loading/blending racks, I know for a fact that one of the drivers that worked for our company was a recovering alcoholic, that did in fact try to drink the ethanol. Made him so sick he had to be hospitalized, and of course was fired. There is gasoline added before it's transported for this reason. You can't sell it as a bulk motor fuel unless it's blended with some percentage of gasoline before it's shipped. It doesn't have to be 15% gasoline, just enough percentage that it can't be consumed as a beverage.

The racks do a specific gravity test on what they have in their holding tanks (fuel and ethanol), and blend it with the aid of computers as it's pumped into tankers. The additive package that each company uses is also blended into the product as it's being loaded. If it's non branded fuel the additive package is reduced to control costs, hence your bargain priced fuels.

When I operated the Pennzoil station pictured in my signature pictures, we got fuel from the actual Pennzoil refinery, located in Oil City PA back in the late 70s, early 80s. They also (traded) pulled fuel from United Refinery in Warren PA. When I got the actual Pennzoil fuel, it was much better quality fuel than the crap that came from United refinery. I will make a note here as ethanol was not used as a fuel additive back in the time 70s-80s. United was already using it to raise octane numbers of their crap, low octane fuels before the US required it in the blend. Their name was "oxygenated fuel", a misleading name because it had no more oxygen in it than straight gasoline did. It also had less BTUs and got lousey fuel mileage, same as today's blends do. Also had a tendency to knock under load, so they weren't even meeting minimum octane requirements at the time.

I always checked the invoice to see where it came from, transportation cost was just a tiny bit less from United than Pennzoil (less distance), so about 2 out of 3 loads came from them. As I stated earlier, anyplace oil companies can shave a penny off, they will.

After it arrives at the racks they have a lot of latitude to blend it most anyway they see fit. There isn't a whole lot of oversight on fuel quality within the industry, and same as any industry without oversight, they play the rules loosely.............