[1funride]

Are most of the steering parts sold as total replacement parts, such as the Center/Drag Link bar with the ball joints already installed?

I see very few center links for sale without ball joints installed, haven't seen replacement center link ball joints sold separately, but have seen plenty of center link bars with the joints already installed. Some seems to apply to the idler arm?

My a-arm bushings are very stiff moving and squeaky, any recommendation on ones that don't break the bank that move smoother and are quieter?

[67gtospud]

Originally Posted by 1funride

Are most of the steering parts sold as total replacement parts, such as the Center/Drag Link bar with the ball joints already installed?

I see very few center links for sale without ball joints installed, haven't seen replacement center link ball joints sold separately, but have seen plenty of center link bars with the joints already installed. Some seems to apply to the idler arm?

My a-arm bushings are very stiff moving and squeaky, any recommendation on ones that don't break the bank that move smoother and are quieter?

From what I can recall, the center link joints are non-replaceable. Same for the idler, so you'll need to buy new units. Bushings fall into that category of "you get what you pay for." For a street car I would recommend you avoid polyurethane as they have a habit of squeaking. Rubber is okay but it seems the quality of the rubber is not what it used to be. Personally I have installed a few kits now from PST using their poly-graphite bushings and they're excellent. All the benefits of polyurethane with no squeak. Honestly for the price, they're absolutely worth it and makes the car feel and handle so much better.

[jonathonar89]

Look into the kits from AFCO. Low friction ball joints and bushings.

https://www.afcoracing.com/store.asp...-69-Camaro----

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 67gtospud

From what I can recall, the center link joints are non-replaceable. Same for the idler, so you'll need to buy new units. Bushings fall into that category of "you get what you pay for." For a street car I would recommend you avoid polyurethane as they have a habit of squeaking. Rubber is okay but it seems the quality of the rubber is not what it used to be. Personally I have installed a few kits now from PST using their poly-graphite bushings and they're excellent. All the benefits of polyurethane with no squeak. Honestly for the price, they're absolutely worth it and makes the car feel and handle so much better.

I enjoyed the PST bushings I had in my 69 for that reason. There's a big however though. You don't see graphite impregnated bushings often anymore. The graphite eats away at the bushing, severely limiting it's life.

When I replaced my control arms, while the bushings on visual inspection looked okay, I took one apart at it was well worn and on the verge of tearing inside. The bushings were about 10 years old and maybe had 3000 miles on them.

to the OP are the bushings squeaking with the full weight of the car on them, or only if you try to manipulate the control arms by hand?

Rubber bushings are designed to grab the cross-shaft and hold on. They add wheel rate as the suspension articulates through it's compression and droop arc. So it's natural for them to feel a bit stiff if manipulating them by hand. With the weight of the car on the suspension, typically that will resolve and squeak as well. You can add some white lithium grease to the outside shell where it sits again the washer and control arm if that's where it's squeaking from.

With rubber, obviously make sure that the bushings are torqued with the full weight of the car on the suspension.

I run delrin bushings in the SPC control arms that I use at this point. I wouldn't go back to a rubber or poly bushing.

[Schurkey]

Far as I know, the "graphite" disappeared from Poly bushings years ago, and with no notice to anyone about it. I hadn't heard "why" until this thread.

Rubber bushings often squeak when the rubber is no longer bonded to the inner sleeve or the outer shell; or has just plain ripped. A ripped, or non-bonded rubber bushing is junk.

Poly bushings can squeak if they're not lubricated properly. There's "special" grease for them that's tremendously "sticky". Some bushings have molded-in ribs that hold grease. Others are smooth; you can lube 'em but most of it squeezes back out when the bushing is assembled.

I've been known to cut lube channels into Poly bushings that don't have them molded-in. Not enough miles on 'em to know how well that works.

[1funride]

I have the steering all figured out, turns out the center link on the 68 firebird doesnt have ball joints, the picture I reference online isnt for a 68.
Now onto looking into a arm materials and the options. Thanks for the insight on different materials.

Bushings are not squeaking with weight of car on them or if they do I can hear it over the engine, only by manual rotating and when I set the car down off the lift and I push down on front to settle it, just enough to bug me, and Im in there changing parts anyhow.

[1funride]

I am just amazed how even what appears to be a simple part is driven by "the devil is in the details". The PST graphite bushings are still sold, I did read that graphite has reduced life expectancy as indicated, and others claim they last just fine. Then the fitment issues with a poly bushing in general. Many claim they will eventually squeak no matter if you use the "special: grease or not. The AFCO bushings are welded in if I am interpreting the instructions properly, I am not interested in doing that. The Delrin greased bushings seem to have no significant draw back except cost. Who makes these other than Global West?

The old rubber ones work just fine, but aren't the latest shinny part. My car has been lowered, improved suspension, heavy sway bar, improved shocks, poly bushings, and tires that grip good, it does handle really well AND flat, will rubber bushing make it a slushy turner.

My old 69 Camaro was slushy, no interest in going back to that.

[JLMounce]

I'm a proponent of solid bushings. They allow and to an extent force the suspension to do what it's supposed. On the street, will you notice the difference? Probably not, unless you're highly tuned to how the car behaves.

If you're involved in competitive autocross, time trial or open road racing events, do you need the solid bushings? Yes. The largest benefit to the solid bushings is a stable alignment. Rubber and poly allow deflection and as a result of that deflection, you get real-time alignment changes as the control arms move not only in their designed arc, but deflect in the bushings as well. This makes steering at the limit imprecise and will cost you that extra 10th you may be looking for.

The answer as a result lies in what you want and need from the car. If it's just a street car that handles better than factory and the most you're doing is maybe some back country roads or a canyon here or there, a high durometer rubber or poly bushing is going to work just fine while also possibly saving you a bit of money.

I've had delrin bushed arms on my car now for 2 seasons and haven't had any ill effects. I wouldn't say that NVH from the car is any better or worse. My car is pretty aggressive as it is, so it's not a great test-bed for that type of thing.

[jonathonar89]

AFCO does need to be welded but they’re awesome once in. It’s an inexpensive route to get a very free-moving control arm that has little to no bushing deflection.

Global West is the only other option I know of if you’re going for this type of bushing. Like you said though, more expensive.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Rubber and poly allow deflection and as a result of that deflection, you get real-time alignment changes as the control arms move not only in their designed arc, but deflect in the bushings as well. This makes steering at the limit imprecise

That characteristic is called "Compliance". The manufacturers use it to reduce NVH. There are some clever tactics, such as oval bushings that allow lots of compliance in one plane, but very little in another.

The big issue is that rubber deteriorates. Once the bushings are past their service life--and that life is surprisingly short--they're functionally failed. That is, they're still in use, but they're unable to do a proper job. Same for body-mount bushings, leaf-spring eye bushings, etc.

Photos from 1988 Chevy K1500 upper control arm, but rubber bushings from any vehicle do about the same thing over time.



One inner sleeve as-was, (bulging from rust towards the top) and the other after spending time on a wire wheel to remove the rust (narrow towards the top, representing the missing steel that rusted away.)
This shows that even before removal, the rubber was no longer bonded to the sleeve, moisture was destroying the bushing long before the knife removed the rubber during disassembly.

Poly supposedly lasts longer. As i said, this thread is the first I've heard of Poly deteriorating (because of added graphite) but I suspect this is moot as I bet there are no Poly/Graphite bushings still made; despite the advertising.

As Poly bushings tend to be firmer, they have less compliance. Then again, there's various firmesses of rubber bushings--the Trans Am got firmer bushings than "regular" Firebirds.

The wonderful thing about Poly bushings is that they don't require special tools to install, and the process is just plain less labor-intensive for a DIY procedure. Some, but perhaps not all these characteristics are shared with other non-bonded bushing designs. Rubber bushings are THE WORST for DIY installation.

[1funride]

JLMounce, you indicated you run delrin bushings. From literature these are teflon infused and do not squeak as they are self lubricating. Have you found this to be true?

They advertise them as the best of both worlds, quiet like rubber but good control like poly, and no squeak. Would seem foolish to spend that kind of money if there is any risk of squeaks. RideTech makes a set for the factory control arms.

[Grand73Am]

I've found the lifespan of my rubber bushings to be very long. I just recently rebuilt the front suspension and replaced the factory bushings in my 75 Lemans Sport and they had 174K miles on them. I replaced them with Moog factory replacement rubber bushings, that I expect I will never have to replace again.
I also have a 73 El camino, that I rebuilt the front suspension on 22 years ago, with rubber bushings. I put about 100K miles on that car during that time. The upper bushings now need to be replaced, so they didn't last as long as on the Lemans. The lowers are still okay, and actually rarely go bad, since they're much bigger. I'll be putting Moog rubber ones back in, since that's still long life.
I've tried poly bushings before, and they didn't last a year without wallowing out and getting loose. So, I'll never do that again.
If you're doing competition driving, then maybe you need something else. But for street driving, factory replacement rubber bushings provide long life and aren't expensive. Just make sure to torque them to the correct specs, and do it with the weight of the car on the suspension, not with the wheels hanging.

[jonathonar89]

Originally Posted by 1funride

JLMounce, you indicated you run delrin bushings. From literature these are teflon infused and do not squeak as they are self lubricating. Have you found this to be true?

They advertise them as the best of both worlds, quiet like rubber but good control like poly, and no squeak. Would seem foolish to spend that kind of money if there is any risk of squeaks. RideTech makes a set for the factory control arms.

The AFCO kit I mentioned before has delrin bushings for the lower control arm. Everything single bushing in that kit comes with a zirk fitting. I will try to post a picture later showing the grease channel in the bushing. It’s a very nice setup for the money and the control arms move like butter. There is no resistance like found in polyurethane or rubber.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 1funride

JLMounce, you indicated you run delrin bushings. From literature these are teflon infused and do not squeak as they are self lubricating. Have you found this to be true?

They advertise them as the best of both worlds, quiet like rubber but good control like poly, and no squeak. Would seem foolish to spend that kind of money if there is any risk of squeaks. RideTech makes a set for the factory control arms.

No, my suspension does not squeak. The delrin isn't so much "self lubricating," you do have to grease them occasionally.

The delrin bushing is acting more as a bearing in the suspension system. They can be setup pretty loose or tight. What you typically want to achieve is enough side loading so that when you pick up one of the arms in it's mounts, it will slowly fall under it's own weight.