[65nss4spdGTO]

To use the word “coating”, what are we refer to? You can coat the side of the piston, the top, underside, cranks, bearings, valves, heads, ect. The purpose to alter the finish, is what coatings are intended to do. They control friction, oil film, surface metal and heat. The coatings can be made up of many different materials based on the intended use. Many of the materials in property do exactly what they are intended to do. An example of this from my actual experience is hard anodizing applied to a piston. The process allows the piston to resist and dissipate heat faster than an untreated piston. I’ve seen where the chamber in a cylinder head became distorted from heat in which the exact same condition prior to treating the piston became distorted. I’ve also seen where specific coatings that have been used with normal operating conditions, the coating were no longer evident after tear down. So it all depends on the specific application and intended use. In all cases I would prefer coated main, rod and cam bearings in place of non-coated. I would also use specific heat related coatings whenever possible if the budget allows. It increases the latitude of an application and allows other changes in clearances to be used. If these adjustments aren’t taken into consideration during the builds, I can see no attribute to using them, but using the coatings and allowing changes to the build to take advantage of them will only show the value in the process.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[mike leech]

true enough. I have coated bearings in the engine and elsewhere on the car. I will continue to use them. As a friction modifier....yes. I also agree on hard anodizing pistons in boosted/nitrous applications to help with protecting ring lands etc...

The premise was, coating pistons and combustion chambers = 10-20 hp.

Got any reliable info or experience with HP gains that can be measured?

[slowbird]

PY needs coated to protect itself from the BS and so called experts.

[mike leech]

drop cloth?

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Got any reliable info or experience with HP gains that can be measured?

In a turbo diesel application, iron headed truck pulling engine incorporated coatings and found a drop in operating temps, this in turn allowed increased boost which led to additional HP. What came first, the chicken or the egg???

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

In a turbo diesel application, iron headed truck pulling engine incorporated coatings and found a drop in operating temps, this in turn allowed increased boost which led to additional HP. What came first, the chicken or the egg???

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Better question. Did it make more with just the coating?

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Better question. Did it make more with just the coating?

I hear ya but The way I see it, any change that ALLOWS me to make another change that produces power, then the first changes worth is validated. JMO

[cgeise]

Damn we have a lot of Ramblers - almost 500 posts -- I feel so proud, like a new daddy

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Damn we have a lot of Ramblers - almost 500 posts -- I feel so proud, like a new daddy

Yeah but it reminds me of this baby....

http://youtu.be/PUKMUZ4tlJg

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Better question. Did it make more with just the coating?

Theoretically, if friction is reduced, heat is reduced, and the reduced friction means there is less internal parasitic losses, which means there is a greater net power at the crank at every RPM. Not even debatable! What IS debatable is if the gain is enough to even measure at the track and conclude that that little difference was a result of the coating, and if so, was it worth the $$$$$.

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

Yeah but it reminds me of this baby....

http://youtu.be/PUKMUZ4tlJg

Id say very close lol

[455firebird1969]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Damn we have a lot of Ramblers

[jfud]

I have nothing to contribute, I just wanna be able to say that I posted on "RAMBLERS".

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by john marcella

I hear ya but The way I see it, any change that ALLOWS me to make another change that produces power, then the first changes worth is validated. JMO

agreed. just asking the question. no answer.

Originally Posted by motor-daddy

Theoretically, if friction is reduced, heat is reduced, and the reduced friction means there is less internal parasitic losses, which means there is a greater net power at the crank at every RPM. Not even debatable! What IS debatable is if the gain is enough to even measure at the track and conclude that that little difference was a result of the coating, and if so, was it worth the $$$$$.

We aren't talking theory here. And as stated there are coated bearings in my car. The challenged contention was that coating the pistons and combustion chambers was worth 10-20hp. not bearings and piston skirts. BUT OK we'll include them in the hp debate. I'll coat my whole engine if someone can stand behind that claim of 10-20hp. DEAL?

It is debatable....In theory yes it should work, I agree. thats why I investigated it. The question has always been what will the MEASURABLE hp gain likely be? Not that theres no way it could worth anything at all ever. We cannot even get a guy to stand up and say it was measurable on a dyno.....let alone in a track test. To the best of my limited knowledge there are no nascar teams using it OR nhra prostock etc classes. Doesn't the guy who owns diamond pistons,a coating company, and a prostock entry NOT COATING his own teams engine say anything? Any ideas how many thousands of dollars these guys will pay for 20 hp?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by mike leech

agreed. just asking the question. no answer.



We aren't talking theory here. And as stated there are coated bearings in my car. The challenged contention was that coating the pistons and combustion chambers was worth 10-20hp. not bearings and piston skirts. BUT OK we'll include them in the hp debate. I'll coat my whole engine if someone can stand behind that claim of 10-20hp. DEAL?

It is debatable....In theory yes it should work, I agree. thats why I investigated it. The question has always been what will the MEASURABLE hp gain likely be? Not that theres no way it could worth anything at all ever. We cannot even get a guy to stand up and say it was measurable on a dyno.....let alone in a track test. To the best of my limited knowledge there are no nascar teams using it OR nhra prostock etc classes. Doesn't the guy who owns diamond pistons,a coating company, and a prostock entry NOT COATING his own teams engine say anything? Any ideas how many thousands of dollars these guys will pay for 20 hp?

Mike,
Did anyone make that claim? Or have you turned my WAG into a claim?

Stan

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
Did anyone make that claim? Or have you turned my WAG into a claim?

Stan

LOL, I have been waiting for this post.

[johnta1]

The challenged contention was that coating the pistons and combustion chambers was worth 10-20hp. not bearings and piston skirts. BUT OK we'll include them in the hp debate. I'll coat my whole engine if someone can stand behind that claim of 10-20hp. DEAL?

1st Didn't you say that you tried the piston top coating? If so, I'd like to know who you used as your 'coating' company when you used it?

Now, do you know Mike Moran?

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by mike leech

agreed. just asking the question. no answer.



We aren't talking theory here. And as stated there are coated bearings in my car. The challenged contention was that coating the pistons and combustion chambers was worth 10-20hp. not bearings and piston skirts. BUT OK we'll include them in the hp debate. I'll coat my whole engine if someone can stand behind that claim of 10-20hp. DEAL?

It is debatable....In theory yes it should work, I agree. thats why I investigated it. The question has always been what will the MEASURABLE hp gain likely be? Not that theres no way it could worth anything at all ever. We cannot even get a guy to stand up and say it was measurable on a dyno.....let alone in a track test. To the best of my limited knowledge there are no nascar teams using it OR nhra prostock etc classes. Doesn't the guy who owns diamond pistons,a coating company, and a prostock entry NOT COATING his own teams engine say anything? Any ideas how many thousands of dollars these guys will pay for 20 hp?

10-20HP sounds high, but 20 hp@9,000 RPM is 11 lb-ft of torque. Not a lot, but less than the rotational load of a shortblock. There's a lot of friction and heat from 8 cylinders having pistons and rings traveling from TDC to BDC and back to TDC ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TIMES PER SECOND!

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by johnta1

1st Didn't you say that you tried the piston top coating? If so, I'd like to know who you used as your 'coating' company when you used it?

Now, do you know Mike Moran?

Yes I do. What words are you going to put in Mike's mouth?

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
Did anyone make that claim? Or have you turned my WAG into a claim?

Stan

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Jeff,
Let's look at that a little closer.

A nitrous racer spending let's say $500 on coating to gain just a WAG here 10-20 HP. That is Crazy when a small jet change to flow 40-80 lb/hr more does the same thing. Cost?

Same subject different reason. Are they running the hard top piston coating?

Stan

You are the one making the claims and i am the guy asking you to support it. Call it what you want your WAG is unsubstantiated but was stated "as lets say" You also said lets look a little closer.

So I'm looking a little closer. FACTS?

A guy like you or john should have no trouble finding the real value and applying a calculator for us dummies to "learn from". There are several guys that have supplied me with "tips" on things that can increase HP. They usually sound like this.... "hey mike fyi, i made 13 more hp with xxxx brand and weight oil. Make sure its at xxx temp when you start the pull."

You guys have NOTHING?

Originally Posted by motor-daddy

10-20HP sounds high, but 20 hp AT 9,000 RPM is 11 lb-ft of torque. Not a lot, but less than the rotational load of a shortblock. There's a lot of friction and heat from 8 cylinders having pistons and rings traveling from TDC to BDC and back to TDC ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TIMES PER SECOND!

I agree in theory. Again I'm not asking for theories, I requested facts or experience. So far Calvin is the only one to offer any experience where coating led to a HP increase, Second hand increase through increased boost. But OK, So now maybe the boosted guys can glean something useful.

Also one would think a much lighter reciprocating weight would show up easy on a dyno, yet most times it does not. It may help shift recovery and accelerate a car slightly faster. Mostly its easier on parts at high rpm.