[68 461 Bird]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

68 461 Bird,
Believe me, nobody is as frustrated as me...well, maybe Paul is in a close second behind me! Though Paul has pulled away from this build other than posting an occasional comment, I still think he's a great builder that is just not accustomed to problems with his builds. I'm sure a lot of people are surprised that he built a motor that has problems but they're also seeing how he is handling it. Jeff Koerner is still communicating with me so that's a good thing that I appreciate.

If Koerner Racing Engines wants to send this motor to Butlers and pay the ride and repair, I would do that in a second. I don't think that's too realistic though.

I never heard of Paul before this thread. You may be the first person to start a thread about one of his engines with a problem, weather it's something he did or a part failure, hopefully you will get to the bottom of this soon. I agree having either of them pay for a second opinion is a stretch.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

I sense your frustration, and likely building anger.
I was the guy that went and diagnosed our field problems (leaks, noises, other oddities) and when our fault, I often fixed them in our warehouse, sometimes in vehicle or I pulled it. (The plus side of having a mechanic assisting running a machine shop)

Try the cylinder cutout/wire pull, many noises related to piston skirt clearance, pin and rod bearing can be isolated by this method. It only takes about 10-15 minutes maximum to complete.
When you eliminate the ignition the heaviest load on these components is greatly reduced, and usually, if any inadequacy is causing a noise, that noise can be greatly lessened, pointing to the causeusual area..

HTH

Great information SteelCity

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Bad gas will glue up the intake valve stems in the guides which would make the valve close too slow, which would exactly explain why the engine runs like it does and why the knock is there. To me the knock sounds like a roller lifter smacking the cam lobe because of lash being present, which would happen if the valve is getting stuck in the guide.

How long does it take for that to happen? The bad gas sticking a valve.
Carb got primed, the engine fired right off and the TAP TAP TAP was there.
That would mean bad gas sets up faster than super glue OR if it is valve related...something was wrong prior to delivery. Like a stuck plunger in the lifter or trash in the check valve. Or maybe the dyno gas was bad?

Clay

[chiphead]

Do you guys really think that a new 400# valvespring on a properly set up head, with low mileage is going to be thwarted by some fuel varnish on a valvestem? Heck, spray some carb cleaner down the carb while its running in an attempt to clean the valve stems. I'm sure it won't do anything but make a little smoke, but process of elimination demands everything be tried once.

I would suggest keeping a diary of when everything was tried and the results. With so much work being done, it'll all run together in your head.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Do you guys really think that a new 400# valvespring on a properly set up head, with low mileage is going to be thwarted by some fuel varnish on a valvestem?.

Of course not. I think that posters rant and the follow up statement is the only way he knows to say 'i don't know'.

I've still got the same thoughts on the TAP TAP TAP that I had from the get-go.

Just wish some one would have been there to look one of the times that the pan was off. It's something that needs checked or looked at with all makes of china rods. Got to have more clearance there than side clearance on big ends.
Or you get a TAP TAP TAP, like the OP's, that is loud at low rpm's and quietens when you rev it up. Time and the gyroscope effect (object in motion) keeps it from knocking at higher rpm's.



Clay

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Do you guys really think that a new 400# valvespring on a properly set up head, with low mileage is going to be thwarted by some fuel varnish on a valvestem? .

Well.....I've had varnished valve stems stick so badly that when the cam lobe cam around and tried to open the valve it bent the pushrods...on several cylinders. LOL Took forever to get those things freed up enough to get the car to idle right, and even longer to free them up enough for the car to drive right.

Different example but just throwing it out there that yes they can stick so badly that even the mechanical force of a lobe and lifter won't open them and the weak link gives....in this case the pushrods. Wouldn't have mattered if it had 400 lbs springs or not, and actually that would have just made it tougher to open. Just saying.

[NeighborsComplaint]

If it's mechanical interference, you should be able to hear it turning the motor over by hand with the plugs out and valve lash loosened. If not audible, at least there should be a tight spot as the crank and cam are rotated. There is always the possibility of a distributor gear on the cam causing the distributor's pinion gear to walk up and down until out of clearance.

I hear a piston rocking but it could just as easily be a defective cam and distributor drive gear.

[Va68goat]

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,
I think we're doing some testing tomorrow. Thats is definitely on the list.

"QUICK-SILVER",
We've been down the road of the valves sticking. We all should remember that this noise has been present since the very first day this motor was started. I purchased the gas and gas container on the way over to the shop where the car was started. Paul also sugessted that I get the heads inspected which I did and they gave the heads a clean bill of health. Paul communicated with the guys at the machine shop regarding the heads.

chiphead,
I have kept notes on a legal pad regarding the testing that we have done since the knocking noise was discovered. I have more pictures of this motor torn apart than I have of me driving this car! I've documented everything....pictures, video, notes, receipts and I've printed out every page of this forum. I can't help but bring up again that the only common denominator between all my friends that have worked on this car is that none of them had this motor apart to inspect.

Formulajones,
The gas when the car was first started was new. The gas that is in there now is only a few months log. I had the heads inspected at a local respected machine shop and Paul spoke to them as well. They complimented Pauls work and gave the heds a clean bill of health.

NeighborsComplaint,
I think tomorrow is going to be telling. My buddy is going to address a majority of the recent thoughts that are on this thread. I hope it's something simple but I'm not holding my breath.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

STEELCITYFIREBIRD,
Formulajones,
The gas when the car was first started was new. The gas that is in there now is only a few months log. I had the heads inspected at a local respected machine shop and Paul spoke to them as well. They complimented Pauls work and gave the heds a clean bill of health.

I understand that. I was just giving the example to those that don't believe something like that is possible, because it most certainly is.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Do you guys really think that a new 400# valvespring on a properly set up head, with low mileage is going to be thwarted by some fuel varnish on a valvestem? Heck, spray some carb cleaner down the carb while its running in an attempt to clean the valve stems. I'm sure it won't do anything but make a little smoke, but process of elimination demands everything be tried once.

I would suggest keeping a diary of when everything was tried and the results. With so much work being done, it'll all run together in your head.

In my 50 years of being around cars, I have never seen a car with sticking valves unless the stem was bent from smacking a piston. In that case the pushrod was also bent like a pretzel. I've seen cars so abused that sludge was built up solid around the valve springs all the way to the valve covers and the engine didn't make so much as a tick as it ran.

[OCMDGTO]

Without a doubt the most depressing thread on here. I keep hoping you are going to say you solved this mystery and are out shredding tires. The down time I had on my engine swap which was only a few wks about killed me. Gotta have that Pontiac fix

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

In my 50 years of being around cars, I have never seen a car with sticking valves unless the stem was bent from smacking a piston. In that case the pushrod was also bent like a pretzel. I've seen cars so abused that sludge was built up solid around the valve springs all the way to the valve covers and the engine didn't make so much as a tick as it ran.

I'm 66 YO, I've made my living working on cars and equipment for 50 years. I never had until about 10 years ago. I had a valve hung badly, I used carb cleaner and a hammer, that was how I finally freed it up. It ran fine until I stored it for winter, and missed terrible upon starting it up in the spring. Dead cylinder, no compression at all exhaust was hung open and the intake was binding also. I've never had one stick like that again in the same engine, or any other engines. Pulled the valve cover off and the pushrod was off the rocker arm, and the valve was open...…..

It was if the valve was coated with super glue on the stem. I ended up taking the valve spring and seal off the valve, tapping it down in the head and pulling it back with vise grips with a rag on the jaws. It took probably at least a half can of carb cleaner and beating it in and twisting and pulling it back out to get it freed up. A 400 Lb. open valve spring would have made zero difference on this particular engine, although it had stock springs on it. If I hadn't had it happen to me, I would call BS on it too.

I believe the perfect storm has to happen, and the valves need to be open when the engine is shut off for one to stick that badly. It also needs to be running rich as if a cold engine running on choke to get enough fuel to create that much varnish to glue the valve open.

My father was also a mechanic until he retired, he used to tell me about valves sticking and I never believed it because it had never happened to me. Considering he started working on cars in the late 30s the oil was inferior to anything we currently have and left varnish on every part in the engine, and no oil filters on most automotive engines. That is why they changed oil every 1000 miles religiously.

If a valve stuck back in that era they poured a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in the engine to dissolve the varnish. Flatheads at that time, so pulling the valve back closed was more difficult.

It can happen, I however don't think it's the problem on this engine, but there is always an outside chance it could be.

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I'm 66 YO, I've made my living working on cars and equipment for 50 years. I never had until about 10 years ago. I had a valve hung badly, I used carb cleaner and a hammer, that was how I finally freed it up. It ran fine until I stored it for winter, and missed terrible upon starting it up in the spring. Dead cylinder, no compression at all exhaust was hung open and the intake was binding also. I've never had one stick like that again in the same engine, or any other engines. Pulled the valve cover off and the pushrod was off the rocker arm, and the valve was open...…..

It was if the valve was coated with super glue on the stem. I ended up taking the valve spring and seal off the valve, tapping it down in the head and pulling it back with vise grips with a rag on the jaws. It took probably at least a half can of carb cleaner and beating it in and twisting and pulling it back out to get it freed up. A 400 Lb. open valve spring would have made zero difference on this particular engine, although it had stock springs on it. If I hadn't had it happen to me, I would call BS on it too.

I believe the perfect storm has to happen, and the valves need to be open when the engine is shut off for one to stick that badly. It also needs to be running rich as if a cold engine running on choke to get enough fuel to create that much varnish to glue the valve open.

My father was also a mechanic until he retired, he used to tell me about valves sticking and I never believed it because it had never happened to me. Considering he started working on cars in the late 30s the oil was inferior to anything we currently have and left varnish on every part in the engine, and no oil filters on most automotive engines. That is why they changed oil every 1000 miles religiously.

If a valve stuck back in that era they poured a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in the engine to dissolve the varnish. Flatheads at that time, so pulling the valve back closed was more difficult.

It can happen, I however don't think it's the problem on this engine, but there is always an outside chance it could be.

Interesting read. In Joe's case, considering the tapping noise began as soon as he started the fresh engine, I doubt it's the valves sticking.

[Va68goat]

Todays testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25qdxORqRsI&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZKHIOGWcE
Checked cam gear for any irregularities. Counter balance weight can be seen occasionally during rotation. This is normal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIZZnj_cBJw
Distributor mock up shaft installed with the correct polymer gear. No run out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbt6ai8AI3A
Different distributor and plug wires

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUPgxosKOKs
Fuel pump completely off, torque converter pulled back, belts were removed as well.

We also pulled each plug wire one at a time and the knocking noise was still present.

[krisr]

We're the exhaust headers on it now the ones that were on the dyno?

[TedRamAirII]

I hear no abnormal noises when cranking it over without spark plugs installed. Does it have a knock when cranking, with them installed? I dont know about all that shaking, it should be smooth, as its all balanced and all. Has anyone "felt" the knock anywhere? or just hear it? Could it be the valley cover?

[Sun Tuned]

That cap and coil same as what was always on it? Or rather when did that show up on that car?

[Sun Tuned]

How many times have we took an ohmmeter and checked those wires?

[gtospieg]

VA68goat...very sorry to "hear" you are still having a problem...the testing done today seems to be pretty thorough but still no answers

[Sun Tuned]

I'd pull both valve covers and just for the hell of it take a pull handle and extension and a socket and hand turn that thing over and verify the firing order is what the cam is doing. Just for the hell of it. Y'all done everything else. Just see for sure.

That engine is missing like 14 kinds of hell and that's got to be fixed! Or at least before much else is done figure out why it's missing.