[MidnightAuto]

Would like some opinions to help my thinking. 64 convertible. Front suspension has started to make horrific creaking, especially when turning, which I assume is some combination of bushings and ball joints. I have not done any work on suspension from po, and assume it’s due. I don’t know much about suspension.

At some point (not now), I’ll probably switch to 17 rim and will Need to lower car a little. So if I am going to fix creaking now, should I just go ahead and get a suspension kit that is adjustable for 17 down the road? Any recommendations on moderate kits? I think hotchkis is pretty good? I don’t want to break the bank, but tightening up ride and preparing for eventual lowering seems rational.

As I said, I’m no suspension guy, I changed some front springs and replaced a rear end 30 years ago, but thats it. What is skill level required to do this work? Will help me determine if I take a crack at it, or just send to shop.

Thanks for thoughts.

[ZeGermanHam]

It's not a necessity to lower your car if you change your wheel size. The tires will (i.e., should) have the same outside diameter regardless of the wheel size, so ride height is unaffected.

Regardless, Hotchkis is certainly decent, but there are numerous alternatives that are equally good, so you have options. Take a look at the kits from UMI Performance, Global West, and Ridetech, to name a few. I went with a kit from UMI Performance for my '66, and am very impressed with their quality.

As far as the skill level needed, it's pretty darn easy. If you've replaced springs and a rear end before, you're more than qualified. Usually the most difficult part is dealing with crusty old bolts & nuts, which requires persistence and patience rather than skill or experience.

One last note about safety... If you're experiencing a lot of creaking and other odd noises, it's possible that your ball joints are shot. If they are severely worn, they can fail catastrophically and you will be unable to control the car. Best to err on the side of caution and not drive the car if your ball joints are toast.

[JLMounce]

You really need to decide first how the car is going to be used and what you want it to do. There’s a pretty big recommendation difference between just wanting a lowered stance and bigger wheels vs wanting the open track or auto-x the car.

If you’re wanting that lowered stance and bigger wheels down the road, you don’t necessarily have to build a suspension that has adjustable ride height. As long as you aren’t planning to radically change the overall tire height, changing the wheels and tires isn’t going to change much.

Before I gave a recommendation I’d want to know the following.

How is the car used now?
What are future plans for the car if they differ from what you do now?
How important is ride quality to you?
What is your budget?

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

It's not a necessity to lower your car if you change your wheel size. The tires will (i.e., should) have the same outside diameter regardless of the wheel size, so ride height is unaffected.

I agree with what you say in principal, but in reality it is very hard to keep the tire diameter the same.

The OE tire size is 7.50x14 with roughly a 27" diameter.

It's very tough to find a 27" tall 17" tire that will fit the front of a '64 GTO. I personally run a 215/55/17 (26.3" tall) which is taller than most people use. Frequently people running 17's have a front tire that is less than 26" tall.

I don't like a huge air gap between the top of the tire and the fender lip (basically I want the OE air gap), which requires lowering the car.

My '64 with the 215/55/17 fronts and 245/50/17's rear (26.6" tall) in the attachment below with Koni Coilovers used to lower the front end.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by MidnightAuto

Would like some opinions to help my thinking. 64 convertible. Front suspension has started to make horrific creaking, especially when turning, which I assume is some combination of bushings and ball joints. I have not done any work on suspension from po, and assume it’s due. I don’t know much about suspension.

This may be a stupid question, but has the suspension been greased recently? Maybe it just needs servicing.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by The Champ

I agree with what you say in principal, but in reality it is very hard to keep the tire diameter the same.

The OE tire size is 7.50x14 with roughly a 27" diameter.

It's very tough to find a 27" tall 17" tire that will fit the front of a '64 GTO. I personally run a 215/55/17 (26.3" tall) which is taller than most people use. Frequently people running 17's have a front tire that is less than 26" tall.

I don't like a huge air gap between the top of the tire and the fender lip (basically I want the OE air gap), which requires lowering the car.

My '64 with the 215/55/17 fronts and 245/50/17's rear (26.6" tall) in the attachment below with Koni Coilovers used to lower the front end.

If the OP opted for an 18" wheel, 27" overall tire diameters are a common tire size. My Wife's chevelle runs a 245/45/18 and 275/40/18. Pretty much every tire model will have these sizes.

The earlier A-Bodies are cut a little different and I don't think they'll necessarily readily accept a 275 tire with a 9.5" wheel in the back, but 235 to 245 should be easy at all for corners, with the possibility of a 255 in the rear, on 8" wide wheels.

Because the A body cars do run a taller overall height tire, for an upsized wheel package, I do recommend an 18" wheel for that reason.

[The Champ]

Jason

I'm not sure of a 245/45/18 (26.7") or 235's for that matter (26.3) on the front of a '64 - especially if you've added disc brakes like I have. I used to have trouble with a 235/60/15 (26.1" tall) rubbing on 15x7's with 4.25" BS before I went to 17's. BS would be critical with those 18" sizes.

[MidnightAuto]

thanks for all the thoughts guys. I am a sucker for champ’s look and stance. So that is a good aspiration for me. As to what I am looking for, it’s a street car, no plans for road racing or similar. But I do like the idea of upgrading drive ability to as close to
Today’s performance cars as I can within $ reason. It’s currently got front and back sway bars and koni shocks from po. Would be cool to have ability to adjust stance with if/when rims/tires come in to play.

Now with that said, if the patient did not have to be opened in a major way To fix these creaks, I’d keep driving as is for now and save suspension upgrade for another day. And to that point- last night I did grease all the zirc fittings I could find on drivers side. Took it for a drive and not materially better. Did not seem Like the joints needed much grease. Since I don’t know how to trouble shoot this I took I couple videos of me raising or lowering car with floor jack. U can hear creaking. I get a lot of that when making turns going slow. It dawned on me that perhaps this could be the shocks?

Lowering front end with floor jack
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SV2lzl_PjCo


Raising front end with jack (ignore squeak- that is my floor jack as I raise car in one hand, it’s the creak/pop like in other video)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3vfIrAWkY

Wdyt?

[ZeGermanHam]

That to me sounds like you need to grease the sway bar bushings. You mentioned that you have aftermarket sway bars, which frequently use polyurethane bushings, which are notorious for creaking if they are not kept greased. Also, do you by any chance have polyurethane control arm bushings? They have the same issue with creaking and need to be greased, too.

I can see why that noise would drive you crazy, though!

[JLMounce]

That does sound like the sway bar. When you installed it you would have had some white lithium grease for the mount bushings and the end link bushings. I’d check there first. That may be all it is.

Ball joints are typically a knocking noise if they are bad. If you still have rubber bushings in the control arms, those are supposed to grab the sleeve and actually stretch. They would t make that noise unless they have pulled away from the sleeve in which case they would need replaced.

[MidnightAuto]

Ok thanks. I happen to have some white grease here so that is great. With that said, I just started to take the bar off to grease the bushings and am stuck already. Tried to loosen bolt for bracket connected to frame in first pic below. Assumed it was welded nut inside box frame, but seems otherwise. Loosening for 5 minutes with nothing. No way I can get a wrench inside frame to hold nut. I have no idea how they put this on unless it was frame off and they could access at front of box frame? What am I missing?

Second pic is end of sway bar just to confirm u guys are saying to apply grease where those bushings are as well, once removed from car, correct?

[ZeGermanHam]

The sway bar bracket bolts don't use a nut on the inside of the frame, at least not from the factory. The holes themselves are threaded, but they often get stripped out which is likely what you are experiencing. You should be able to get the bolts out eventually if you use a flatblade screwdriver or putty knife, etc. to wedge between the frame and the bolt head while loosening. Then for reassembly, I recommend installing nutserts in the frame which will solve the issue of the stripped holes.

And yes, I'd apply grease to all bushings pictured.

[MidnightAuto]

Thanks ze. Apparently i can’t catch a break. I remembered I have a stethoscope camera. Here it is. A damn nut. If I have to take front bumper off I am going to be pissed. There is a 1 inch access hole in the frame I am going to try and get a flexible ratchet extension in. Let’s see. Nothing is ever damn easy. Sigh.

[MidnightAuto]

Pic

[JLMounce]

Yup looks like somebody previously stripped the threads and put a bit on it with the bumper off. That’s bad luck.

One thing you can do is remove the end links and turn the bar up and down to try and replicate the sound. If that’s not it, don’t spend time on those hidden nuts.

[b-man]

You’re best off removing the bumper to access the nuts inside the frame rails. I can’t imagine accomplishing that task any other way.

I put a 1.25” front sway bar on my ‘64 that was sourced from a second-gen T/A and I used the larger bolts from the T/A and put nuts inside the frame rails, bumper was off of course.

The thin frame rails might have a thread and a half to two at most, asking for failure at some point. Putting nuts inside the frame rails or installing Nut Serts is the best way to go and pretty much mandatory when upgrading the front sway bar size.

[MidnightAuto]

Here is my latest update. I put white grease in sway bar ends and passenger side bracket that came off no issues. The other bracket with hidden nut I left for now. Greased up passenger side zerk fittings on all joints to match driver side I did earlier. Drove it. Mostly the same.

Here is a good video showing creaking on both sides as the steering wheel is rotated back and forth. Sounds close to wheel. Wdyt?

https://youtu.be/zGtCv5tM5rA

[JLMounce]

It's hard to tell because the camera is moving around so much, but it almost looks like the wheel itself is moving on the studs. I'm assuming you have the correct lug nuts on this with enough shank depth not to bottom out? Also that you have the correct style lug nut, either the washer type or conical depending on the whee's mounting provision?

If the wheels are tight and the lug nuts are correct, that leaves ball joints, including those in the steering links or even possibly a rag joint or issue with the steering box.

Based on the noise being loudest at the wheels and not as loud as you're moving through the engine bay, I would almost rule out the rag joint or steering box.

How long has it been since the car has had a complete suspension overhaul for both the control arms and the steering system?

[MidnightAuto]

Thanks Jason. I am out of town, but will try and get some additional pics when i get back on the weekend. with that said, this has really never been an issue till about a few weeks ago and gradually has gotten more annoying/loud. I think the studs and lugs are fine (probably an illusion in video), never had an issue with them. I have owned the car almost two years now. It really sounds like its right behind the wheels. some of the control arm bushings look a bit old, would turning the wheel manifest that creaking through those bushings? I had my hand on the balljoint when the car was turning and i could not feel any sound vibration there. was closer to whatever mechanical elements are behind the wheel. spatially, almost like a wheel bearing to a degree.

[JLMounce]

If I was in this situation, this is how I'd try and diagnose it.

- First thing I'd get the wheels up off the ground and see if you can replicate the noise turning the wheels without them on the ground. Depending on the scrub radius, tires themselves can be really noisy.
- If the noise is still present with wheels off the ground, I'd next check the wheels bearings. This can be easily done by simply attempting to move the wheel forward and backwards, up and down. It should have no play in it. Any play indicates either an issue with the bearing or the spindle assembly may be overly loose (I would replace bearings regardless here).
- If the bearings check out, I'd remove the wheels and have somebody repeat turning, listening carefully for where the sound is coming from.

More than likely you're going to find the culprit there. While I don't think that you'd get that type of sound from the control arm bushings without them being manipulated more up and down, anything is possible. Heck the cross shafts could be loose enough or the bushings in bad enough shape that the steering arms acting on the spindle could cause deflection in the arms enough to cause noise. I would think more than likely you're going to find that this noise is coming from pickup points in the steering arms. Outer tie rod ends that meet the spindle would be my guess.

Steering components on these cars are often overlooked, but contribute a lot to the "sloppy and wondering" feel that old cars get blamed for. A hint here is that they weren't that bad when new. You could likewise find that the joints connecting the drag link to the inner tie rods are creating the noise. It could be something else all together, you've just got to get the car in the air with a helper and track it down.

Once you track down where the noise is coming from, then you can make some decisions on what if anything you want to go in and replace.