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Old 08-31-2020, 12:09 PM
66sprint6 66sprint6 is offline
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Default Least expensive coilover option

We are considering coil overs on the front. If anything to control the height. I have a difference of 3/8” between the drivers and passenger side and I’m not really enthused about shims and spacers. If we get better handling all the better. I see cheaper ones on eBay, but they are not a real brand as far as I can tell. I’m not worried about single or double adjustable, just the basic ones with a low cost.

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Old 08-31-2020, 12:20 PM
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From what I've seen, the eBay ones aren't so bad if you really want to save money. I have a UMI kit that came with fancier viking coilovers-- I agree the valve adjustability is nice but not needed. The height adjustability I found really useful.

Check out this video from Donut. They're a little silly and are into import cars but they do a good real-world comparison of high end vs low end equipment on two identical cars. https://youtu.be/8kef1wXcQYw?list=PL...j2iz5pZiQl_Nba

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Old 08-31-2020, 01:04 PM
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Have a friend that had the "budget" friendly QA1's on his LeMans. They lasted approximately a year before the threaded sleeve dislocated itself from the shock body. this occurred on both sides.

And that's the problem with the hybrid coil-overs in general and the cheaper options more specifically. They are nothing more than a traditional large body shock with a threaded sleeve welded to them and a perch for a conical spring.

You are asking parts that were never designed for anything more than damping loads to now hold the weight of the car. The more you drive and the harsher the road surface, the more prone to failure they become.

As you start getting in to the more expensive hybrid coil-over options, some of these issues start going away. The QA1 double adjustable options don't have a welded on sleeve, but the shock body itself has the threads integral to the design. You also start seeing more robust mounting eyes to carry more load. These are the type you want, but they don't fit your least expensive budget.

Another thing I'll point out here is that most people in your shoes go this route so they can control the height, but typically once they are set, you don't touch them again. In order to install these, you are going to have to break the spindle from the ball joints and lower the control arms anyhow. If all you're trying to do is level the car a bit, put a 1/4" spacer in the side of the car that sits low. This will level the car to within about an 1/8" of your other side.

There's no issues with using spacers from a safety or longevity standpoint. How do you think circle track guys corner weight their cars? NASCAR uses spacers to set initial ride heights with basic coil springs as well, then utilizes shock packers to adjust from there.

The factory type coil spring also has a better motion ratio than the hybrid coil-over designs and as a result you can run less spring rate to control the car.

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Old 08-31-2020, 01:09 PM
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Maybe there are some places where "brandless, made in China of dubious quality" is a good fit but, to me, my suspension certainly isn't one of them.

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Old 08-31-2020, 03:22 PM
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I took at look on ebay and these aren't actually much cheaper than the vikings that came with my UMI kit. I drive really hard through the canyons in LA and commute over hard road conditions an hour each way. The whole kit has held up really well, including the viking shocks.

Ebay Aldan American front coilover kit $540
Summit has UMI Viking, same as I have $690

Neither is really cheap. Both are height-adjustable. Aldan looks pretty reputable to me but i see a few complaints online. This forum will always tell you to buy the older, "better-made" stuff and many are allergic to products that don't have a flag on them. Sometimes their advice is right, sometimes it's not.

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Old 08-31-2020, 03:44 PM
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You should probably mention what year and model car you're talking about - it will help others so they can make recommendations.

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Old 08-31-2020, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ignaro View Post
I took at look on ebay and these aren't actually much cheaper than the vikings that came with my UMI kit. I drive really hard through the canyons in LA and commute over hard road conditions an hour each way. The whole kit has held up really well, including the viking shocks.

Ebay Aldan American front coilover kit $540
Summit has UMI Viking, same as I have $690

Neither is really cheap. Both are height-adjustable. Aldan looks pretty reputable to me but i see a few complaints online. This forum will always tell you to buy the older, "better-made" stuff and many are allergic to products that don't have a flag on them. Sometimes their advice is right, sometimes it's not.
The problem here isn't american made or not. Just because something is made in the US doesn't automatically make it a quality item.

The issue I have with these is that they are expensive and are in general not a good design. You can see the design issues as soon as you put one directly next to a true coil-over. The biggest thing you'll see is that the spring is not encapsulated by the complete coil over. In the hybird setups that we're talking about here, you have a conical spring that seats in the upper spring pocket the same as a traditional coil spring would, then tappers down to sit on the threaded perch.

As the car moves through bump and droop the spring literally pushes on various sides of the shock body depending on how it's being loaded, not only vertically but also horizontally. This is why the cheaper units with welded on or press fit threads fail over time. They literally get pushed and pulled off the shock body.

The shock's pushrod is now also taking lateral loads. The cheaper units again utilize the same type of pushrod that is found in a traditional shock. That part isn't intended to see lateral loading.

Case in point, the only actual advantage of the hybrid coil-over setup is the fact that you can adjust ride height without having to crack the spindle away from the ball joints and lower the control arm. You don't gain nearly as much weight savings as you do with a true coil-over. You don't gain any of the net suspension travel that you get with a true coil-over and you don't really gain any performance advantage over a traditional coil spring setup.

So if that's the case and the original poster is just trying to correct a lean in the body, why on earth would he need to spend $500-$700 to do it? There are various methods of correcting that ride height issue that will cost about $50.00 and take an hour and a half of work. The only drawback being that he doesn't have easily adjustable ride height.

Now, if the original poster is just looking for an excuse to go coil-over because he wants to be able to say he has coil-overs, then that's a different story. In that case, I would recommend the QA1 double adjustable, which is the most robust system I've seen in the $750-$800 range. I would rate the Alden American pieces similarly.

The best non-surgical coil-over conversion I have researched is the Verishock coil-over conversion. It gets you closer to a true coil-over, and addresses some of the issues inherent with the hybrid coil-over design. You pay for it though.

http://www.cachassisworks.com/Attach...XXX_DS_WEB.pdf

At $1048 per set, they are expensive. What they do better however is provide a true linear spring and shock by hard mounting the entire shock and pushrod at the upper spring perch and using an integral top spring perch on the shock itself. The upper mount is a pivot ball which allows the shock to arc in any direction while keeping the pushrod and spring always functioning in a linear only state. Because you aren't gaining travel with this setup an integrated progressive jounce bumper is there to lesson the chance of shock damage by slamming the shock into the upper perch. It has oversized cross-bars a the base to help transfer load to the lower control arm (especially important when using the factory parts).

The biggest drawback is how the shock is being mounted in the upper spring perch. It uses the hole for the car's top shock mount, which again is not designed to hold the entire vehicle's weight. The Verishock system does include sandwiched plates that help to fortify this area, but again this is the nature of these hybrid style setups. You have to compromise somewhere when using factory parts and un-modified chassis.

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Old 08-31-2020, 07:19 PM
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Vikings are a great option.

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Old 08-31-2020, 07:49 PM
66sprint6 66sprint6 is offline
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This would be for our 1966 Tempest. I understand that they could cost more for half decent quality. I guess that 500-700.00 is not too bad. Of course, I have to add another third when converting to CDN, plus you guys get free shipping and I get hammered on shipping. So I guess that's why I was looking for a cost effective solution. I saw that most people were happy with their knock-off tubular control arms, so I thought maybe the coilovers as well.


Last edited by 66sprint6; 08-31-2020 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:44 PM
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Not to mention the A body cars rear shock mounting points were only designed to hang a dampener on, not support the weight of the rear of the car. The second gen F bodies also don't have very robust upper shock mounts. From have welded the carnage of either, back together when someone has used air shocks to carry the weight of the car I would be leary of using coil overs on the factory GM mounting positions

Any coil over that is mounted on the stock shock locations that are leaned over rather than straight up and down as has been mentioned load the rod and piston to a side load. A spring that is less than straight up and down loses rate as it is leaned from true vertical, so mounting a coil over as GM has mounted the shock, is much less than optimal

Air ride will make a car infinitely adjustable, and has higher spring rate with higher air pressure. If using air bags you should keep air supply to each side singular because pairing them together will transfer weight from side to side through the plumbing when cornering. I have air ride that I built on my dually, it holds all the rear weight with air bags, and has a great ride compared to the leaf springs that were on the truck when I bought it. Nice that I can vary the air pressure depending how much weight I'm carrying.

As mentioned weight jacks used in competition vehicle will keep the spring upright while making it infinitely adjustable for height. Most of the dirt track cars I've built used weight jacks, if they were legal for the class I was racing in. Usually it requires a shorter than stock spring to get the adjustability in height.

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Old 08-31-2020, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66sprint6 View Post
This would be for our 1966 Tempest. I understand that they could cost more for half decent quality. I guess that 500-700.00 is not too bad. Of course, I have to add another third when converting to CDN, plus you guys get free shipping and I get hammered on shipping. So I guess that's why I was looking for a cost effective solution. I saw that most people were happy with their knock-off tubular control arms, so I thought maybe the coilovers as well.
What's your end goal? Are you just wanting to correct the lean that you have, or are you after some upgrades as well?

$700 usd can go a decent way to transforming how a car like a 66 Tempest handles and drives.

I just try to dissuade people on the hybrid coil-over deal because typically the only thing they give an advantage on is the ride height adjustability. Since most people set it and never touch it again, that's money that could be put to use helping other aspects of the suspension that should be addressed.

If you're auto-crossing and need to be corner-weighting the car. They make more sense, especially with class rules that may prohibit use of aftermarket or otherwise altered frames.

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Old 08-31-2020, 09:23 PM
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https://www.umiperformance.com/home/...er-brace-bolt/

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Old 08-31-2020, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
I just try to dissuade people on the hybrid coil-over deal because typically the only thing they give an advantage on is the ride height adjustability. Since most people set it and never touch it again, that's money that could be put to use helping other aspects of the suspension that should be addressed.
I agree 100% with this, and I'm constantly talking people out of coilovers in the BMW world where I also spend time. So many people dump tons of money on costly coilovers when all they want to do is achieve a specific ride height and then never think about it again. For the vast majority of people, their desired goal can be reached with a traditional spring and shock setup.

My vote in this case is to do the homework to find the right combination of spring & shock and save money for something else. Coilovers would be a really expensive bandaid to solve this problem.

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Old 09-01-2020, 06:46 PM
66sprint6 66sprint6 is offline
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Well, lot's to think about and I appreciate everyone's comments. This was mostly driven by the leaning passenger side, so now I'm weighing the options.

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Old 09-02-2020, 04:15 AM
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I have Viking coilovers, and have no complaints.

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Old 09-02-2020, 12:52 PM
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The lean is from poor quality springs, period. As long as they are installed properly that is. 'Correct', quality springs is the real answer.

When it comes to springs, forget anyone who mentions 'built to factory specs', they are lying, there are too many variations, and the 'books' are wrong. Even if they were the 'correct' spec, since the tolerance range is wide, it won't ever be right, hence, the dreaded 'lean'.

I personally only use Global West springs, they are quality pieces, and work. Well at that. Call and talk to Doug, and he will make sure you get what you want & need, and replace them or refund if they are not. Best $180pr you'll ever spend.

Long time ago I spoke to Herb Adams when I called VSE for parts, and we had a discussion about coil springs vs coil overs. Long story short, in many ways, especially for a 'street' car, coil springs are better.

Get some of the knock off tubular lower control arms and GW springs, and if you can swing it, the GW uppers. You will be happy on the improvements. Money well spent.

https://www.globalwest.net/pontiac-coil-springs.html


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Old 09-02-2020, 01:26 PM
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I do want to point out that while the lean issue is commonly spring related (or seating of the spring correctly) that's not always the case. I chased a lean issue on my wife's 71 Chevelle for over a year before we found the cause.

The passenger side always sat lower than the driver's side. We found some spring helpers in the passenger side and the factory springs had been cut by a previous owner. My initial thought as a result was they didn't cut the springs correctly and just used a 10 dollar part to help. Replaced the worn out and modified factory springs with Hotchkis lowering springs which I've always had good luck with. Same issue, the passenger side was lower by about 3/4". Thinking it could still be spring related I swapped the springs left to right, without change, so I knew the springs weren't the culprit. I began to suspect the control arms.

That led to purchasing a set of Summit Racing upper and lower arms and during the installation of those is where we found the problem. At some point the after lower control arm mount had been removed and replaced and it was positioned in such a way that caused a bind in the lower control arm. This added enough spring rate to lift the driver's side. The passenger side was never low, it was the driver's side that was high.

We had the mount repaired and the new control arms installed which reduced, but did not completely eliminate the issue. The shop the car was at indicated they had reason to believe the frame is not entirely square. Likely a collision at some point in the car's previous life which is why that mount was replaced to begin with. So we used some shims to level it out from there.

Case in point, there's a lot of issues that can cause a car to lean.

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Old 09-02-2020, 07:42 PM
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We got the springs from Coil Spring Specialties. When we installed them, there was just the slightest lean. But the stance was near perfect so I didn't want to mess with it. Then it got worse. It doesnt seem to affect the handling and it doesn't feel any softer when pushing down on the PS fender. But I drives me crazy every time I make a lefthand turn because the lean feels accentuated when turning that way.

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Old 09-03-2020, 10:47 AM
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If it 'got worse', that's from the springs settling and taking a set. That I would say is definitely related to springs.


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Old 09-03-2020, 12:39 PM
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First thing I'd try in this situation is swapping out those springs passenger to driver. If after setting the car down initially, the driver's side was still a bit off, moving the spring to the opposite side may correct some of that.

Then you can also see if the issue follows the spring. If it does, you've got a spring with some missing rate. If it doesn't, it's time to start looking elsewhere.

One thing people don't really think of is how cross-weight works in the car. a lean in the front may actually be caused by a spring issue in the opposite rear corner.

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