[Larry Navarro]

Kirk,
I as an SD owner, haven't "taken this thing too seriously", nor am I missing the point. You keep relating MY point back to PS class rules which is NOT my argument here.
The whole point in OUR discussion was to question your statement and/or belief that the "SD can't run strong with big cam/low compression".
I simply prove that it can. ....and I rest my case.

I'm not taking this PS stuff seriously as I don't have a car "built to spec" to compete.
However, I do commend those who have taken the time to science out their combination, as it provides others the info to guide them through a PS build if they choose to do so.

[300 H&H]

Like I have said....

Playing by the rules, and running in a public venue, you will get "kicked" by the other three Pontiac round port motors. You guys really need to go to the HO forum and LEARN a few things about Pontiac motors, instead of "guessing" and "speculating"..... Please take yourself off the SD "throne" and open your eyes and your minds. There is really not that much difference in these engines other than the SD rods.....even the SD heads are not really special.....they are the last of the round ports and they did not make many of them, thats all. Hate to pick at this but you guys take the SD thing WAY to seriously. Bench racing is not reallity......what needs to be done is beating the other's like Ford or Chevy and Dodge in heads up public, play by the rules racing..... I for one would love to see an SD in the running. If Mr Wheymouth is successful that just may happen...Kirk

[165th]

Hello to all in the land of SD. Oh how I miss it!

Does anyone know this car?

Ebay Item: 320286444701

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ponti...mZ320286444701

[Larry Navarro]

LOL...he said "throne". I see they are plentiful in the HO forum.........made of porceline no less.

"Bench racing?"........My track experience surpasses that my friend.

Learn something?........Well, you just did.

[300 H&H]

LOL, Larry,

What have I learned? Not much except in the realm of rules and racing 3 other Pontiacs engines are faster in the class in question, pure stock. And you as an owner of one of these fine SD cars, you are truly a gentelmen, and I thank you for that. Lets get behind Mark Wheymouth and cheer him on in his efforts to get the SD in the top ten where it belongs. Kirk

[Larry Navarro]

LOL....just walked in from drive in the SD.
Signed my name on the street too.

[johnta1]

Signed my name on the street too.

I like that.

[300 H&H]

Larry,

One time many years ago, I like you said "signed" the road in front of a friends house with my HO....late one night as I dropped my friend off after a great night of "clubbing" as they say nowdays. The next time I saw my friends dad, I was at a stop sign and he walked up to the window, grabbed me and almost pulled me out the window! He was not really that mad, but he sure did prove his point! I think I was about 19 or so when this happend, and he is very much a family friend to this day, with open "rights" to my dad's sweetcorn patch....... I might just have to go for a drive right now and get it out of my system. Pontiac..."We build excitment"!!! Kirk

[2manyT/A'S]

Just wondering if anybody out there in "Superduty Land" has ever had their car at the track (and off the trailer)?

If SO,why don't you share your experiences with us here?

(Obviously,my question is geared towards relatively "stock" type cars,but I'll bet there aren't any modified ones left out there ANYWAYS!)

In your thread there seems to be alot of discussion about date coded hose clamps & which is the best trailer wheel bearing grease to use (thanks for that one,Bob),but "perceived value" aside,aren't we missing the whole point of these FINE cars?

The SD 455 seems to have the reputation for being the "baddest" Trans am,but I really can't figure out WHERE or HOW it was established.

Is the reputation FASTER than the actual car?

[Larry Navarro]

I've owned both types "modified" and stock.
My first was the SD pictured in my earlier post.
This engine was in a '73 t/a "Y" code car with 4 speed. I pulled the motor because it didn't run right. Make a long story short, someone had installed a 421 crank in it. Bad idea.
Anyway, I tore it apart put new bearings in it, honed the cylinders, threw the SD pistons back in it, valve job on the SD heads, even used .062" thick(before crush) NOS gaskets on it.
Installed the HC-63 cam, SD intake, SD carb and ram air manifolds with full exhaust. The rear had a 3.08 gearset which I later installed a 3.90.
Times on the track ranged in 12.30 -12.70 with a mph in the 108-110 range. I wasn't an experienced 4 speed driver as it took awhile for me to finesse the combination but the engine proved itself with just the use of the H-O racing cam and some tuning.

My current SD is of the original variety. Through 2" exhaust with an old transverse muffler, the car ran 13.90's at 97-99mph on 225/70 radial t/a's and 3.08 gears.
The car now has a PYPES crossflow setup and "feels" like it has improved with just this addition but has never been down the track with this exhaust.

[x-bird2]

mine has never been "pure stock" since i purchased it as a non-runner. with headers and a 240 duration single pattern cam and 1.52 roller tipped rockers, 12.80s. all else stock, 8.9:1 comp., mechanical adv. only and junk tires. last time out about 2 years ago, 12.20s with 246 duration cam, holley carb, street dominator intake and drag radials. i figure that set-up is good for a high 11 if i could get the time to get to the track with it. i've posted these times/combos, probably 1/2 dozen times here. happy with it--yes i am. do i care that it's not stock? nope. do i race it on the track? yes, when time allows, i've got a manila envelope full of timeslips from over the past ten years. Not one time has it been trailered to the track. I gave some thought to the Pure stock deal when i first got it, and without the ability to chase that scene around through an entire season over a few years decided to build it the way i want it. kudos to those who can participate in it and do well in it. it's a lot of work. i've always espoused that the SD was an engine that provided some of the best potential ever from pontiac for an amateur to purchase in showroom stock form, modify and improve on for performance. out of the box so to speak, it was born into the wrong era to go against cars from just a few years before. Get into the intake, heads and exhaust manifolds, (and not much work is needed on the induction side) slip in a non-stock cam that still passes the rules and it's a contender even with low squeeze. i've been looking forward to how Mark does with his. Meantime, i'll enjoy mine as a driven car, never to be trailered and seeing the 6k mark on the tach at some point every single time she's out for some exercise.

[superdutybob]

I don't understand where all this SD bashing is coming from. SD owners don't bash HO and RAIV owners that I have seen. I love them all. I didn't buy mine to PS race it. I have never taken mine to the track in the 7 years I have owned it. Do I want to? Sure I do. Just hasn't worked out.

Do I trailer it to out of town shows? Yes! Nothing is better than having a portable garage when the weather isn't cooperating.

If I understand it correctly, PS uses NHRA factoring for their starting point. Are SD's and HO's factored the same? Are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges? Can they both have the same CR in PS form?

In response to Mark on the values of the two engines, I was referring to T/A's, not 1 of 17 71 Judge convertibles. If you want to pay that game the RAIII has them all beat in the form of a 69 T/A convertible.

I say end the SD bashing and let's get on with life with our Pontiacs!

[Brewster]

I'll try to get mine out to the track this year and find out what a pure stock (original exhaust and all) automatic car will run.
My numbers will be posted on this thread upon completion.

Larry, I like that name signing thing too!

[T/A Fanatic]

What I'm going to tell you is from memory. I owned a '74 SD from 1981 to 1985. It wasn't stock, but wasn't too modified, either. It had stock compression, an HC-03 cam, Hooker headers, T-400 automatic + shift kit (stock converter), and 3:55 rear gears. Stock intake and carb. The motor had about 80K miles on it, and my "best" time at the track was a 14.12 @ about 105 mph. Now before all you boys start laughing, realize that I never ran slicks, just G60 radials. My "best" launches, if that is what you want to call them, involved simply nailing the throttle at idle, and then feathering the throttle some until I got traction. I was never very good at that.

That car would (and did on one run, as I recall) lay rubber in first gear for over 300 feet, if I kept the throttle in it, and then for another 50 feet or so after going to second. Get the picture? No traction whatsoever! When it would finally hook up it would accelerate like a missile! Back in those days (pre NOS) a 13 second street legal car was not too common. While I couldn't beat them from a standing start I could beat most from a 30+ mph roll in first gear.

While I no longer have the SD, I now own a '71 HO. I love this car as much as I loved my SD (maybe more - I won't sell this one!). This current car is just as fast as the SD, based on a "seat of my pants" testing. I haven't had it at the track yet, but with a 4-speed traction is STILL an issue. I'm curious also as to how Mark's project is going to turn out. I won't ever talk down SD cars, RAIV or RAII cars. They were (and still are) fun to drive.

Alan

[x-bird2]

they're just pokin us in the ribs for fun. please don't take my comments as a knock on those who trailer either. if i ever get my body/paint work finished, my views will probably change drastically the first time i get behind a dump truck on route 33 with it. lol. always remember, the sd block is nothing more than a race derived 366 architecture with different displacement.

[Larry Navarro]

HC-03 = HC-63

[SD Formula]

You are taking me back to the early 90's, when I was a member of the Woodward GTO Tigers. While I was a member, we had dragstrip outings, once at Detroit Dragway & once at Milan Dragway. I drove my SD Formula. There were very few miles on the engine & M-40 (with shift kit) tranny, since the previous owner had rebuilt them. The engine ran .030 over Ross pistons & a Crane cam that matched the original 290 HP grind, 308 Saf-T-trak, stock SD cast iron manifolds, those stock crushed down exhaust pipes, & stock crossover muffler. The following items were also stock: carb (dont remember what jets), Dist (with points) heads, intake manifold no suspension mods, front sway bar hooked up, AC belt off, & all the extra weight of 29 options. I think the highest octane pump fuel at the time was 91 or 92. I first ran with a set of Mickey Thompsons & ran high 14's to low 15's. They were too tall for the gear ratio. so I switched to a set of Good Year 225X15 ST Radials & was able to run a fairly consistent 14.2 to 14.5. I was all over the place with 60 ft times. It was next to impossible to hook up from a standing start. But once you hooked you were gone. One time I came in just under 14 @103, but was never able to duplicate this time. I made about 20 runs, on the day I went to Milan, with very little cool down time. After a few runs with stock brakes bringing it down was also a challenge. One club member had a Grand National, when I lined up with him I smoked & he was gone. Turbo lag wins the day!

[Larry Navarro]

FWIW......I obtained a HC-62 (HC-02) camshaft from Ken Crocie which I plan to install in the SD if I ever decide to freshen it up. The HC-62 is more of a RA4 spec grind than the HC-63, so it would be closer to what Pontiac intially ran in the press car.

[300 H&H]

I am the one who probably is to to blame for the SD bashing, and I am sorry,

But please put yourself in an HO owners possition for a minute, and realize your cars are worth more than an HO. In a T/A at least. Imagine for a moment how would you guys feel if there was a "extreme super duty", and it was on the top of the "value chain" and your cars were worth less... Then on top of that, it turns out in widely viewed venue called pure stock, that your super duty cars are faster than the "extreme super duties"....would not you feel a bit forgotten and short changed at this? I guess us HO owners are in that same position......think about it. Also realize I am personally rooting for the SD to make it in the top ten, as I for one would really, I mean reallly like to see it in the top ten, bradishing some other brand X car from top ten statis.... I cannn't wait to see what Mark can get out of one, and I truely think if any one can, his is THE MAN to get it done! If I have offended anyone I am sorry. I just could not help myself, had to "stir the pot" a bit on this one. Like I have said here before, we all love our round port motors! And we all love our Pontiacs....and most importantly we all are people with our own lives and responcibilties, but we share our love of the brand and it's cars above the others. At least that is why I have found this place and enjoy so much posting here at PY forums. I wish I had an SD and a RA II, and a RA IV....got the HO covered for now..... Best reguards Kirk

[Father&Son73T/A]

Hell I'm just a lowly "D"port guy,I'd love to have an SD or an HO,both kick as*!