[dancolkate]

Hey, I started that thread.

Who was it that said:

"PHS is not the right connection."

Me thinks we're barking up the wrong tree.

[taximan]

Steve and Baron:

If I am correct, my POP attached, contains my engine sequence. Do either of you know which numbers are the engine sequence ?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Taximan: As it turns out, I don't think any of the plastic P-o-P's had the unit numbers. Just the older style metal ones that were stamped with raised alpha-numerics. Don't know what year they started the metal ones (maybe early 60's?) or what year they stopped using the metal ones (maybe 67 or 68 ?)

I don't think the info on yours relates to the unit numbers. They must have instituted an easier but less consumer accessible format to verify those numbers. (?)

[LASJayhawk]

Baron, I suspect one of the reasons the information may be being withheld isn't the MUN.

8J72

Now I can go make a key for your car

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by LASJayhawk

Baron, I suspect one of the reasons the information may be being withheld isn't the MUN.

8J72

Now I can go make a key for your car

You Rascal ! Send me a spare set too .

No, actually I had some other members mention that before about some of my postings that had my key codes listed. I don't cover them because I change the keys on every Car after I buy it. Never know when a previous owner may have kept a set, and then decide they want that $1200 GTO or $800 Judge back I bought from them 15 or 20 years ago. Just one of those things I did back then to help prepare my retirement assets. And glad I did because most of them do want the Cars back.

Wish I could pack everything into semi trailers weld them shut and park them back to back like that guy in Wisconsin did.

[Steve Hoog]

You Rascal...... haha

I've got some buddies over with a pre Wisconsin party going on, but I’ll get back with all this later for sure.

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by steved400

You Rascal...... haha

I've got some buddies over with a pre Wisconsin party going on, but I’ll get back with all this later for sure.

Practice up my friend....up here in Wisconsin, drinking is a sport, and we are all professionals!

[Steve Hoog]

Ok, we practiced quite heavily tonight. So I will keep this short and sweet.

I don’t know about the 69 plastic cards. I would maintain that the VIN was the point of concern with all 69 and post cars, so the Engine Unit number was most likely a production concern. That would mean it was irrelevant in 69, where as prior years it was more prominent I have a 72 card at work and I’ll look at it tomorrow, but I bet it’s like the 69.

I’ll have to follow Baron’s lead on the pre 69 stuff, as I have really never paid attention to that.

Not heard a word from the GTOAA yet.

Continue on tomorrow.

Everyone sleep well!

[dancolkate]

Hmmmmmmmm, think I'm onto something here. Maybe i's not a "database" we're looking for, maybe it's a "formula".

Can anybody get it??

Block seq #:
0514569

Info off the build sheet (found under pass side carpet):

Job sequence number (hand written on buld sheet) N369.
Body # BF05374
DP Seq # 943113 18 0317

[Rzepka_R]

Yours does seem to have some interesting numbers once you realize "N" is the 14th letter, maybe you're on to something for that manufacturing plant.

I have a 1966 GTO built in the Baltimore plant. It's a tri-power, four speed, 3.90 gear car and all the engine casting numbers are just a few weeks in front of the cars build date. I'm the third owner and if it's not the original engine someone sure did spend a lot of time finding an engine with all the right numbers back in a year when there wasn't anyone that could have cared any less about number matching stuff.. Everything points to this being the original engine and four speed (part of VIN stamped on it) for the car, but I don't have the Protect-o-Plate to prove it.

I found two build sheets in my car years ago, one thing that surprised me is the build sheets don't have a VIN or anything on them, but when you see the date and color combo you can match it up to being correct for the car. My guess is the build sheets came before the VIN. The build sheet explained options and colors long before the car got it's unique VIN.

Other then paint and interior and some option codes, the build sheet has a sequence number (XXX), a job number (XXX), a body number (XXXXXX) and a six digit number down in the lower right corner blocks that have no label.. None of these number combined to make up the engine sequence number like yours does.

I got my PHS for the car back in the early 90's -- the billing history does NOT have the engine sequence number on it, nor does it have the place where it would be -- it's just white space in that area..

I do have the Protect-O-Plate from another GTO built at the Baltimore plant about 3000 V8 engine builds after mine (the VIN increased by the number of V8's as I understand it).. Both mine and this other cars engine number begins with a "4", but if you take the other numbers as actual consecutive numbers they are different by almost 60,000 so it would appear the engine number is less of a consecutive running total and more of some other combination. Either that or we do not understand what the engine sequence number was really counting. I also have a Protect-O-Plate from a Pontiac plant built '65 Grand Prix and the digit after the "P" is a 3, which I understand to mean more then 300,000 V8's for the Pontiac plant that year, it's engine sequence number begins with a "5"..

I've read numerous times that the VIN is a consecutive count of V8's for that plant, my guess is the VIN was one of the last things to be assigned to the car. It would seem if we could find someone that remembers when the blocks were stamped we might have a clue into the mystery. I remember some articles a long while back in the GTOAA monthly that had a Pontiac plant worker talk about when he worked there, I think it'd be nice to find someone that remembers when blocks were stamped..

If anyone knows more about build sheet numbers with the '66 GTO feel free to PM me..

Happy Holidays!
Rich

[Steve Hoog]

This is a diagram of the old Pontiac plant, certainly doesn't have to apply for the Baltimore plant. But as you can see, one of the first things that happened after leaving the Fischer Body plant was to recieve the VIN before hitting the assembly line.

Doesn't pertain to the thread but Rich mentioned something that made me remember this.

[johnta1]

It has been my understanding that the MUN and the engineID code were stamped at the foundry plant. Then they were shipped to the individual car plants for installation.
Also, I believe the cars would have to have a 'work order' before the car was made, therefore before the car got a VIN.
Therefore I believe the individual numbers are not dependent on each other.
They probably were all tied together at final assembly as it was about to be rolled off the line.

I find it hard to believe that with all the members on PY and the other Pontiac boards that no one has worked or knows some one who worked at these plants.

Also how do they do them now at the plants?

[dancolkate]

I think everyone will agree the VIN is very difficult to see when the engine is in the car.

Notice how pronounced and visible the seq # is on the block.
GM wanted this number to be accessible (and more visible than the VIN) for some reason.

I'm getting close.....
The "N" in the job # definatley = the 14 in the engine seq #

[johnta1]

dancolkate, I don't see how that would pertain to the engine sequence.
What about the other 500,000 engines?
Is the 3 standing for 5 in the MUN?
Or if the N is 14, what of the other 4 engines with N. i.e.0014569, 0114569,0214569,0314569?

I would have to re-read my Craftsman Service News, but it seems that the earlier ones when mentioning engine problems said engines from xxxxxx to xxxxxx MUN for recall/work.
The later ones said from VIN's Pxxxxxxx to Pxxxxxx.
As Steve thought maybe the MUN wasn't relevent after the VIN were stamped on the blocks. The MUN was just for the foundry paperwork.

[Rzepka_R]

Yes, after I wrote what I did about the VIN I realized it'd be a little hard to stamp part of the VIN on my Muncie unless the number was known at that point, so assigning the VIN to the car obviously wasn't the last thing, but if it was the first thing it seems odd that the build sheets didn't have the VIN on them. The build sheet tracked the car by sequence, job and body number and must have been the internal tracking for the car, if I knew how to figure out the codes it probably explains all the options as well.. From a manufacturing point of view I guess you don't need a VIN to track the car down the line if you have something else to track and explain the options it should be built with.. It leads a person to believe the VIN meant nothing to the manufacturing plant building the cars as they had an internal system of sequence and job numbers to track the build.. It was only when the car shipped out of the plant did it start to be tracked by the "DOT" system of a VIN..

Based on the 400,000 plus engine sequence number on my block and the fact I have the Protect-O-Plate off the other Baltimore plant GTO that was built 3,000 or so V8's after mine, yet the engine sequence number is almost 60,000 off, if it is a running number it would almost have to include engines from other plants.. How many engine plants supplied engines for Pontiac? How many V8 engines did Pontiac sell or manufacture in 1966 in total? If there isn't engine sequence number duplication within a year for V8's and it really is a running total, knowing the total number would help to see if 400,000 plus engines would have been manufactured by March of the build year (again this is specific to my GTO)... I'll have to dig up those articles from the very old GTOAA monthly news-letters, but I could have sworn the guy was in the Pontiac plant and he even talked about building engines there.. If every plant built there own engines then that means the engine sequence number could have all ready been stamped, but they would of had to stamp the letter code at time of assembly. I might believe this too, as my sequence numbers are stamped by someone that cared a little more then the the person that stamped the WS.. Now if this was the case, the build sheet had the "tracking numbers" to build the car as it was suppose to be built and the plant added the engine letter code and that code was what they needed to get the right engine in the right car -- what possible reason would a plant need to have the engine (foundry) sequence number for any tracking? It does shows up on the Protect-O-Plate, however, so they did feel it was important to have for warranty type reasons. Makes it very hard to believe they'd stamp out the plates and never record the information on that plate and keep it somewhere.

It really does seem like someone on this board would know someone that worked at some plant back then and have some clue of when numbers were stamped and where they may have been recorded.. Maybe even someone at a dealership, wouldn't they want to recorded the information for the same type of warranty reasons?

Happy Holidays!
Rich

[Held for Ransom]

dancolkate,
all I know is your trim tag will look like...
ST 69-24237 BF 05374 BDY
TR 257 * 40 B PNT
02C 943113 350317

* - there might be a code B80 here.

[Rzepka_R]

Found the GTOAA articles and they are about a person's time spent at the Pontiac main plant.. A foundry was there and they machined and assembled the engines there. It doesn't say it was the only foundry or machining plant for engines, but there is a comment about how tight things could get if the engine plant shipped a lot out to other plants and was working hand to mouth for cars getting built at Pontiac.

As a side note, it does talk about how it was a manufacturing/assembly plant where no one thought anyone would care about numbers years from then, things happened -- engines damaged and replaced with the original set off to the side until someone had time to repair it and place it back in the line, whole frames swapped out due to damage, etc... It wasn't commom, but wasn't un-common either.. Someone could have a "repaired" engine in their GTO and that's why the casting dates are months before the car build..

I also found somewhere that almost 400,000 of the Tempest line was produced in 1966, so it wouldn't surprise me if close to 1,000,000 was a total yearly build for Pontiac..

If the Pontiac plant was the only foundry and assembly plant for engines, then my opinion/guess is the engine sequence number was stamped on the block right after block machining and was nothing more then a running total of blocks machined (maybe only V8's, maybe not)..

Any thoughts?

Happy Holidays,
Rich

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Dan C. : There is a show on network TV called "NUMBERS". They crunch numbers and come out with all kinds of answers that seem almost impossible otherwise. You remind me of their work on that show. Keep at it, or send them your factors - maybe they will make an episode about our quest.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Here is some interesting information regarding a question Taximan posed to gtohurstjudge. Hope they don't mind me transfering it to this thread. It might help provide an outlet for some, depending on their original selling dealer.


Taximan -- "gtohurstjudge:

can you lend any expertise to this forums discussion on engine sequence #'s ?

How to de-code ? Where can we get docs that list them ?"
==============================================

gtohurstjudge -- "Taximan, I do not know of anyway to glean any info from the engine sequence
number on the block. I do know that the sequence always seem to consist of 6 numbers (no letters) and in looking at various block numbers, none of the numbers
seem to correspond to any build date as far as I can tell. It may very well be that one
or two of the numbers may signify something other than numerical sequence, but I have never seen or read anything regarding the matter. I read with interest the
discussion on the forum regarding witholding of the engine no. on PHS documents.
It does appear that censorship is taking place. The original sales invoice on my car
that was generated by the dealership does include the engine number informati on,
along with the key code info. It would seem to me that if this info was on the sales invoice it would be on the PHS microfilm documents."

[dancolkate]

1) Today I'll head out to the stores to see if I can find a Pontiac Abacus.

2) Found this today cruising around the Classic site:

Originality:

For cars older than the last ten model years and newer than 1960 contact Pontiac Historical Services, P.O. Box 884, Sterling Heights, MI, 48311-0884. Send $35 for a copy of the factory invoice and other information. You may also visit their website: http://www.phs-online.com

If you own a Canadian Pontiac contact GM Canada for verification.

From Jim Mattison of PHS:

First, maybe you already know that if you "really" study some of the buff books and enthusiast magazines, there are vendor ads (not necessarilly in the Pontiac section) which can provide trim tags for a car. These ads elude to the fact that the vendor is working with the local police departments. Even the most un-informed can easily recognize that is not the case, at all!!! Most of these tags are NOT used to replace lost or otherwise mutilated tags, but rather to add a Fisher Body code to the tag, making it into a GTO, or to change the color or trim on a car. So far, I'm sure this information comes as no surprise to you!

Recently we discovered that there is even a vendor, who for the right amount of money, will provide a: "Build Sheet" and Protect-O-Plate of your choice, also! These items first started to show-up with the Corvette folks, but are now beginning to pop-up for ALL of the GM models, including Pontiac. It doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to realize what these items are being used for!

Our most recent discovery is that it now appears that "Vin Tags" are being made!

It started out with a request to PHS, from a prospective buyer of a car, who was wanting to verify a 1972 GTO Convertible (one of none built), prior to buying it. We informed him that Pontiac never built a '72 GTO Convertible and told him to save his money. He wanted the paperwork anyhow, as the vin showed that the car came with the 455 HO engine, a rare and increasingly desirable combination for a non-GTO, especially on a convertible.

When we retrived the vin information on this vehicle, the Pontiac information showed that this car was produced with a 350 2bbl engine, not the 455 HO. Numerous cross-checks and double-checks verified that we had NOT made a mistake!

Yesterday, we recieved a photo of the vin plate, as well as a xerox copy of the title for this car. Both the vin plate and title clearly show that this car is a 455 HO Convertible!

We have represented Pontiac-GMC Division as an "expert witness" in any legal dispute on an older vehicle, for almost ten years. Every month we are involved in numerous aspects of vehicle tampering, from emissions tampering, to the faking of a GTO's, or other Pontiacs. I am 100% sure that vehicle fraud has just been elevated to a new level!!!

I have known for years that there are ways of generating a vehicle title from nothing (that shocked you, I am sure!), but to this point in time, I've never seen one. Trust me, if I've discovered one..................there ARE more out there!!!

There are those who cannot understand why I'm so protective of the Pontiac Division records. Some even think that we only do what we do for personal gain and recognition. I assure you that is NOT the case at all! We spend a tremendous amount of our time, behind the scenes, trying to keep the hobby clean and to make sure that decent and honest folks don't get "ripped-off"!!!