[BigAquaBonney]

Anybody have a correct, rebuilt 4 bolt water pump for a '63 389 that they want to part with?

The one that I have looks like the one (pictures about 2/3's of the way down) in this thread. That seem right?

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=663099

[mechanickeith]

Check my thread here about 4 bolt water pumps!!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ght=water+pump

[BigAquaBonney]

Checked it out. Very helpful, but the pictures of in the Kodak Gallery are gone. I have two samples. One came off of a '63 389 no air that had shallow spines going in one direction (the right handed picture in the HAMB thread), and another with the last three digit part number of 677 with an "andromeda" or spinning star burst pattern going the other direction (the left handed picture in the HAMB thread). The later came off of a '63 421 with air. The distance from the back of the housing to the face is different. The proper distance for all of the pulleys to line up is the starburst/421 pump.

[mechanickeith]

kodak is no more so all my pictures got deleted. Read through the entire thread. I reposted pictures later. I think they are on page 2 of that thread. Any 4 bolt pump with 1/2" between the impeller & the housing is for a Tempest 4 cylinder motor. You will need the left pump in the HAMB picture. The 4 cyl pump also has shallow vanes on the impeller. The V8 pump all have deep vanes on the impeller.

[Blackcat]

Long ago I posted a thread about my quest to get the correct water pump for my 63 GP. What I kept getting was a GMC version that flowed the wrong way! Fins the opposite direction. I spent a long time on the phone explaining that the stamped impellers they put on the pumps were for a GMC and not a Pontiac. Finally they believed me and produced the correct pump with the cast impellers for us. Make sure you do not receive a GMC version when you get your water pump. I probably have a new one in the box stored some-ware. (First one produced) The Question is where the ?????? is it at?

[Bill Hanlon]

Once again the "reverse direction" 4 bolt water pump rumor raises its ugly head. There is no such thing even though a number of parts houses have them listed. 55-59 GMC (Pontiac) V8 engines used exactly the same water pumps as like year Pontiac V8s.

I've used pumps with cast and well as stamped impellers to successfully cool my '57 GMC (Pontiac) 347" V8 in the Houston summers in stop and go rush hour traffic with the A/C on.

Look at the shape of the cavity in the timing cover that the pump installs in. It dictates what direction the pump must spin.

Previous rants:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=634794
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=593938

[Blackcat]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Once again the "reverse direction" 4 bolt water pump rumor raises its ugly head. There is no such thing even though a number of parts houses have them listed. 55-59 GMC (Pontiac) V8 engines used exactly the same water pumps as like year Pontiac V8s.

I've used pumps with cast and well as stamped impellers to successfully cool my '57 GMC (Pontiac) 347" V8 in the Houston summers in stop and go rush hour traffic with the A/C on.

Look at the shape of the cavity in the timing cover that the pump installs in. It dictates what direction the pump must spin.

Previous rants:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=634794
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=593938

I'm afraid that your "WRONG" Such an animal exists and I spent months dealing with Cardone about it and getting it fixed! Also, I've proven that the stamped impellers that they were using were inferior to the standard Cast one that the pumps came with.

[mviker]

I've seen this thread a few times in the past and taken note, but the one important question I have is, is there a part number that will get the correct pump for our v8's?

I have a bit of an overheating issue that's dogged me from day one since I first fired up the motor in my car. Done all of the usual steps to cool the car down, but itstill has an issue. I'm beginning to think I may have the 4 cyl. impellor in my car, but I don't want to take it apart until I get a replacement.

Keith...Very good info. Blackcat, would you by chance have the right P/N to get the right pump? Sure would make for a better life. LOL!

[Deadhead]

It is too bad that these can not be clearanced like the 8 bolt pumps. The difference in the depth of the veins in the various 8 cyl. pumps is crazy. The closer you can get it to the housing to prevent cavitation the better off you are.

[mviker]

These two pics seal the deal for me. I remember having waterpump issues long ago with my 62 Bonneville that might have been due to using the shorter vaned waterpump.

My GP runs ok down the highway, but heats up when in traffic. I'm betting I may have the 4 cyl or shorter vaned pump. I want to get my hands on the right pump and dig into the car to see if this really might be my issue.

Also thinking about raiding any 62's in the junk yard that still have pumps on the cars to see what they have in 'em.

This is good stuff!

Kevin

[pfilean]

mviker - I have a problem about like you describe and also would like to have a solution. And I like your pictures. Don't know where they came from but they seem to explain a lot. My 61 manual has about the same picture for the V8 but without the housing shown.

What I still don't understand is the comments about CW/CCW rotation. I have never seen a system where V belts run any pulley on the flat side of the belt. Always on the V side in a pulley groove. You never bend a V belt backwards over a pulley. And then as you think about it I have never seen a differential with the ring gear on the passenger side. Not that it can't be done but I have never seen it. Which means that every engine I can think of must rotate CW when viewed from the front of the car or the car would move backwards in the conventional forward gears.

So although the parts people list both CW and CCW pumps I think that they are failing to say if they are viewing from the front of the car or from the drivers seat.
And as to all the pump vane styles I suppose that different engineers may have different ideas about pump efficency with different vane styles. Although NAPA has a informational post with their online listing that they seem to think explains it.

But we still don't know for sure what parts number from which parts house gets a pump that will cool in traffic.

[mviker]

Originally Posted by pfilean

mviker - I have a problem about like you describe and also would like to have a solution. And I like your pictures. Don't know where they came from but they seem to explain a lot. My 61 manual has about the same picture for the V8 but without the housing shown.

What I still don't understand is the comments about CW/CCW rotation. I have never seen a system where V belts run any pulley on the flat side of the belt. Always on the V side in a pulley groove. You never bend a V belt backwards over a pulley. And then as you think about it I have never seen a differential with the ring gear on the passenger side. Not that it can't be done but I have never seen it. Which means that every engine I can think of must rotate CW when viewed from the front of the car or the car would move backwards in the conventional forward gears.

So although the parts people list both CW and CCW pumps I think that they are failing to say if they are viewing from the front of the car or from the drivers seat.
And as to all the pump vane styles I suppose that different engineers may have different ideas about pump efficency with different vane styles. Although NAPA has a informational post with their online listing that they seem to think explains it.

But we still don't know for sure what parts number from which parts house gets a pump that will cool in traffic.

pfilean,

We've both got mechanickeith to thank for the shots. I pulled them from one of his previous posts that he put up on this subject. The diagrams pretty much speak for themselves on the issues we may have with the 4 bolt pumps. I have definitely seen the shorter vaned pumps in the past with my Bonneville. don't know what's currently in my GP, but if it's the short vane, then that would explain to me why I still have overheating issues although I've done everything possible to solve them. If nothing else, it's one more item to eliminate on the possibility list.

As for the counterclockwise vanes, I am positive the pump rotates in the same direction as all the others, but the vanes simply point in a different direction. Show me a car where the engine rotates the opposite direction and I'll gladly eat crow. Doubt there's one out there that hasn't been modified to do so, perhaps in boating for instance, but I doubt the reverse vanes were designed for that. I could be wrong!

I'd like to have one or two spare water pumps no matter how this goes, so yeah, a P/N that will get the deep vane pump would be nice, but if nothing else, just knowing this info is good enough to at least know what we're looking for. If you go to a parts store and they hand you anything that's not deep, then you know to hand it back to them and not even mess with it until they show you the correct one.

As mentioned., I want to hit the junkyard also. Gonna pull all the pumps I can find and check 'em out next time I go. There are a few 62's that I know of. Need to see what they have. If they're the right ones, I'm pulling the impellors and hanging on to those puppies!

Kevin

[mechanickeith]

I think down through the years the mix up about CW & CCW rotation pumps came about due to Pontiacs "reverse cooling" systems. I will check & see if I can come up with a correct part number for a V8 pump with a cast impeller.

[mviker]

Originally Posted by mechanickeith

I think down through the years the mix up about CW & CCW rotation pumps came about due to Pontiacs "reverse cooling" systems. I will check & see if I can come up with a correct part number for a V8 pump with a cast impeller.

Keith,

A big thanks for making it easy for a caveman like me to understand. Much appreciated!

[Engine-Ear]

Good tech, guys. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and pics to help clarify things!

[pfilean]

I can believe that the reverse flow cooling systems may have gotten some parts boys confused but they should at least check the old sources. Attached is an exerpt from an old parts book that looks to me like Pontiac used the same pump from 55-63 which covers years both before and after the change in flow direction. So the change must have been done with the passages in the timing cover and not with the pump. I still believe all pumps turned the same direction and it's the parts boys that are confused.

Yes - the four cylinder did get another pump which would be the small vane version for the different timing cover housing.

[mechanickeith]

Ok,,,Here is the real deal about NAPA 4 bolt Pontiac water pumps. The 4 bolt pump with a cast impeller that works with all Pontiac V8's till mid year 63 is part number 58-594 at NAPA. Cast pump & impeller, cost at my napa is $111.39 plus tax. For comparison, the EXACT same pump but with a stamped impeller is $43.98,,, Thats a 67 dollar difference for a cast impeller!!!! As I cant get the correct impeller 4 bolt pumps for my Tempest 4 cyl cars, I buy the stamped impeller pump, press it apart & put the cast impeller on the new pump. You may be able to take this NAPA number & cross reference to a different parts house & come up with a different price/pump. BUT need to ensure it has a cast impeller that is correct for the V8 motors. There were several different cast impellers made but I see no reason that they wont work fine on our V8 Pontiacs. Look at the attached pictures. In the 4 pumps in a row,,,the pump on the far right is for a V8. Look at the gap between the impeller & the housing. The Tempest pump (# 1 & 3 ) has about a 1/2 inch gap between the housing & impeller & has very short vanes on the impeller. This is so it sits in the rear half of the timimg cover & only pumps water to the right side of the motor.The V8 impeller is close to the housing & has deep vanes. This pump impeller fills the entire timing housing & pumps water to both banks of the motor. Last picture is of a different style of cast impeller for a V8 pump. You can use the V8 pump on the Tempest motor with no issues. If you use a Tempest pump on a V8,,,the left cylinder bank will overheat due to a lack of moving coolant. Hope this helps!!!

[mechanickeith]

Originally Posted by pfilean

I can believe that the reverse flow cooling systems may have gotten some parts boys confused but they should at least check the old sources. Attached is an exerpt from an old parts book that looks to me like Pontiac used the same pump from 55-63 which covers years both before and after the change in flow direction. So the change must have been done with the passages in the timing cover and not with the pump. I still believe all pumps turned the same direction and it's the parts boys that are confused.

Yes - the four cylinder did get another pump which would be the small vane version for the different timing cover housing.

Partially correct!! The Tempest pump is the same as the V8 except for the impeller. All 61-63 Tempest 4 cyl motors with the 4 bolt pump uses the same timing housing as the 60-late 63 Pontiac V8's.

[mviker]

Just digging around using Keith's part number, I see Summit has the correct V8 water pump going for $82.95. It's got the deep vanes and cast impellor. I think I'm going to order one and see how it goes. It sure would be nice if this solved my troubles. My car runs fine going down the road, but gets hot idling in traffic. I suppose grabbing one of those laser temp gauges might be useful too, to see if the temperature varies from left bank to right bank before making the swap. That would be a good indicator as to what pump is currently in the car. After reading these posts, if the left (driver's) side is hotter, then most likely, there's a short vane pump in there.

BigAquaBonney...Thanks for opening this can of worms and Keith, Thanks for helping put the lid back on! It's threads like this one that can really make a difference. I salute you both!

Link to the Summit pump...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AAZ-58-594/?rtype=10

[Deadhead]

If you know an HVAC guy you might be able to borrow one of those laser thermo deals. Most of them have them.