[Tom Vaught]

Kenny, VERY FEW parts were produced by PMD. Carbs were made by Rochester Products or Carter. Camshafts were made by Melling and other Suppliers, Pistons were made by TRW, etc. So where do you draw the line and say that Thompson was not a supplier (like all of the other suppliers?)

PURE PMD? Just because Pontiac put a Part Number on someone's parts does not mean it was made by Pontiac Motor Division.

Tom Vaught

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

JUST the facts, whether you want to believe them or not.

Timeline of Gen III V-8 Creation
Late '91: Tom Stephens asks GM Powertrain's Advanced Engineering to quietly pencil up an initial Gen III V-8 design.
May '92: A blind test by GM executives occurs at Black Lake inside GM Milford Proving Grounds, and pushrod V-8 development is green-lighted.
Late '93: The first dyno testing begins with prototype Gen III V-8 engines.
Mid '94: Gen III estimated at 10 percent of design requirements (this step is called Concept Approval in the GM development process).
Early '95: Chief Engineer Koerner gives a presentation to Chairman Jack Smith and other GM execs regarding the progress of Gen III V-8 program and receives a round of applause for progress and design potential. That response is unusual for these presentations.
Late '95: Gen III V-8 development is nearing completion in vehicles and on dynos.
Mid '96: The LS1 version of the Gen III V-8 is unveiled to the media.
Mid/Late '96: Production of the LS1 begins at the Romulus, Michigan assembly plant

Gen III V-8???
Generation 3 of what??

What were generation 2 and 1?

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Gen III V-8???
Generation 3 of what??

What were Generation 2 and 1?

The other small blocks made by shove-or-leave-it (chevy)

Gen 1 1955-1987

Gen 2 1988-1997

Small blocks designed, engineered, and made by GM powertrain, LS engines (not chevy)

Gen 3 1997-2007

Gen 4 2005- present

Again GM marketing capitalizing on the small block name, which is known in any civilized portion of the world. GMs cashing in on the small block name leads many to believe the LS engines are an extension of the chevy designed SBC. It's pretty evident that many on PY assume the same thing as well as listings for many aftermarket vendors erroneously listing the LS family as chevy engines, when in reality they are GM engines.

BTW, the LS series of engines are used in many applications worldwide, many uses have nothing to do with automobiles. Stationary power plants and other industrial uses as well as marine use etc.







.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Kenny, VERY FEW parts were produced by PMD. Carbs were made by Rochester Products or Carter. Camshafts were made by Melling and other Suppliers, Pistons were made by TRW, etc. So where do you draw the line and say that Thompson was not a supplier (like all of the other suppliers?)

PURE PMD? Just because Pontiac put a Part Number on someone's parts does not mean it was made by Pontiac Motor Division.

Tom Vaught

Tom,
Also, all of the early 4 speeds for cars from all the manufactures were made by B W.

The only ground PD might have to stand on was it was never offered for sell in a car. But all of the 3 big sold performance parts that were not offered in cars but just over the counter.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Tom,
Also, all of the early 4 speeds for cars from all the manufactures were made by B W.

The only ground PD might have to stand on was it was never offered for sell in a car. But all of the 3 big sold performance parts that were not offered in cars but just over the counter.

Stan

One more comment on the Thompson stuff.
Everyone loves the Mickey Thompson Cross-Rams. Some even have a Pontiac part number on them. So where do you draw the line on Thompson being a supplier?

Tom Vaught

[Half-Inch Stud]

R&D parts
Engineering Prototypes
LRIP
Production

and to cloud my point: Special production runs (usually low rate)

My opinion: any supplier limited to pre-production versus ...Production Suppliers

Figure the SD-455 to be a Production engine. Making the SD part suppliers Production Suppliers.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Still looking for that Ram Air V TH400 code "PZ".

Would a find be "PZ - 69" or "PZ - 70"?

or older date tag to reflect the development period (65-67?!)

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

GM marketing capitalizing on the small block name, which is known in any civilized portion of the world. GMs cashing in on the small block name leads many to believe the LS engines are an extension of the chevy designed SBC.

Amazingly clever when a manufacturer "cashes in" on a trademark they hold..


I suppose while "GM engineers" were designing the Gen 3 - LS there were "Chevy engineers" being far less productive.. /or maybe not.

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

I suppose while "GM engineers" were designing the Gen 3 - LS there were "Chevy engineers" being far less productive.. /or maybe not.

Can you restate that?

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

State of California is kinda picky about emissions; and getting the 1971 era 400 mill to pass would have been a task. It must pass visual/functional testing in addition to tailpipe tests - hence the choice to use a GM 6.2l EROD motor.

What bs - that means all 60's 70's musclecars are toast Were you live LOL

This 76 T/A has been setup for zero emissions Pontiac 535 ci. 829 pump gas motor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRYdQm-sSkc

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Amazingly clever when a manufacturer "cashes in" on a trademark they hold..


I suppose while "GM engineers" were designing the Gen 3 - LS there were "Chevy engineers" being far less productive.. /or maybe not.

Obviously there were Chevrolet Engineers working on things like chassis, bodies, etc.
They are a vehicle line organization.

When GM Corporate dropped the individual Brand engineering and went with GM Powertrain Engineering Chevrolet no longer did Powertrain work. That seems to be the part you are missing. Ford is set up the same way. Ford has a Research Organization, Advanced Powertrain and Powertrain organizations and they do ALL of the Engine Transmission/Hybrid/Electric design and release work.

There are no Chevrolet Engineers doing Powertrain assignments any more. (unless they are motorsports type people doing niche market one off stuff.

Tom Vaught

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Amazingly clever when a manufacturer "cashes in" on a trademark they hold..


I suppose while "GM engineers" were designing the Gen 3 - LS there were "Chevy engineers" being far less productive.. /or maybe not.

If anyone objectively looks at the quality and engineering of the LS engine compared to the SBC it's pretty obvious that the same group of people didn't engineer both engines. Even the SBC Gen 2 is nowhere near as advanced as the LS Gen 3. The power output and emissions are showing the efficiency of the engineering aspects are much more advanced over the SBC Gen 2 redesign which was done by chevy engineering. In simple terms it's painfully obvious the chevy engineers didn't have the talent to engineer, build, or design the Gen 3-4 LS engine.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Kenny, VERY FEW parts were produced by PMD. Carbs were made by Rochester Products or Carter. Camshafts were made by Melling and other Suppliers, Pistons were made by TRW, etc. So where do you draw the line and say that Thompson was not a supplier (like all of the other suppliers?)

PURE PMD? Just because Pontiac put a Part Number on someone's parts does not mean it was made by Pontiac Motor Division.

Tom Vaught

I know. Same deal with spark plugs, etc.
I'm going by the basic engine group parts. as in castings. But then you also have the "W" Winters plant aluminum intakes. So yes. Where does one draw the line?

I'm getting into basically the block castings along with the schematics and head castings produced by PMD.

From 1955 thru 1979. D-port, Round Iron port. Block dimensions, head port design, factory intakes.

Then you move into what I call ........... Aftermarket upgrades that bolt on.

But this argument has been brought up in posts at least 50 times over the past 13 years on PY.

Carry on.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If anyone objectively looks at the quality and engineering of the LS engine compared to the SBC it's pretty obvious that the same group of people didn't engineer both engines. Even the SBC Gen 2 is nowhere near as advanced as the LS Gen 3. The power output and emissions are showing the efficiency of the engineering aspects are much more advanced over the SBC Gen 2 redesign which was done by chevy engineering. In simple terms it's painfully obvious the chevy engineers didn't have the talent to engineer, build, or design the Gen 3-4 LS engine.

The Vomittech 350 in my 2000 Escalade....I cant envision that group coming up with the Gen3 either!...

[David Holmberg]

They should just shoot the engineer that came up with the Optispark.

Just saying...

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

When GM Corporate dropped the individual Brand engineering and went with GM Powertrain Engineering Chevrolet no longer did Powertrain work. That seems to be the part you are missing. Ford is set up the same way. Ford has a Research Organization, Advanced Powertrain and Powertrain organizations and they do ALL of the Engine Transmission/Hybrid/Electric design and release work.

There are no Chevrolet Engineers doing Powertrain assignments any more. (unless they are motorsports type people doing niche market one off stuff.

Tom Vaught

Thank you Tom, you nailed it exactly! (my comment was sarcasm).
Apparently a few (post 92 & 94 etc) believe there are vastly less capable "Chevrolet Engineers" on GM payroll for powertrain.. LOL

It should also be common sense to understand the main drive of development for Gen III was to power future Corvettes. Obviously there is trickle effect to flow and share with other platforms.

[mgarblik]

They should just shoot the engineer that came up with the Optispark.

Just saying...


It's funny you would mention that! Optispark was designed and produced my Mitsubushi for Nissan 10 years before ever appearing on a GM Product. TEN YEARS and no issues to speak of on the Nissan engines. Then CHEVROLET ENGINEERS adapted it to the LT1. Put it behind the water pump, mounted it low in the water and road debris, and there you have it a POS ignition system. If not for the POWERTRAIN DIVISION, Chevrolet may have gone under too. Think about the engines we love. In the 1980's PONTIAC engineers were given "PROVEN" Chevrolet designs of the SBC and BBC variety, they immediately improved them both drastically. Yes, I would say compared to Pontiac Engineers, the Chevy guys were underachievers. That's why I love the PONTIAC engine.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

They should just shoot the engineer that came up with the Optispark.

Just saying...


It's funny you would mention that! Optispark was designed and produced my Mitsubushi for Nissan 10 years before ever appearing on a GM Product. TEN YEARS and no issues to speak of on the Nissan engines. Then CHEVROLET ENGINEERS adapted it to the LT1. Put it behind the water pump, mounted it low in the water and road debris, and there you have it a POS ignition system. If not for the POWERTRAIN DIVISION, Chevrolet may have gone under too. Think about the engines we love. In the 1980's PONTIAC engineers were given "PROVEN" Chevrolet designs of the SBC and BBC variety, they immediately improved them both drastically. Yes, I would say compared to Pontiac Engineers, the Chevy guys were underachievers. That's why I love the PONTIAC engine.

Perfect examples Mike, exactly what some people don't comprehend. The LS engine in stock form is head and shoulders above a SBC. As some have described it, a world class engine. The factory offerings for the 2 engines again show superiority in favor of the LS.

One of the things that makes the SBC as popular as it is also make it cheaper to build such as cast combustion chambers, took them forever to come up with screw in rocker studs and pushrod guide plates on factory offerings. The adage you get what you pay for rings true here. These people that engineered SBC Gen 1 and re-engineered it for Gen 2 are hardly world class engineers and whoever oversaw these efforts were not of the same thought processes of the minds that conceived and got the LS series from paper to practicality.

From reading I've done I hardly believe the LS engines were made for corvettes, more so they were the lower production guinea pigs to try the newly designed engine for one model year before it was used in full scale production. Also there weren't enough plants making the new GM designed Gen 3 engine to be able to supply the demand for all divisions at once. Until tooling and other plants ramped up for full scale manufacturing to supply all the divisions, even so the truck lines still used the SBC Gen 2 for a few more years until production was sufficient to supply them also.

The conception that the LS engine is a chevy engine instead of a GM powertrain engine, alienates many people in the Pontiac hobby from enjoying the 98 and up performance Pontiacs. The 98 up Formula/TA, GTO, and G8 are all excellent examples of performance Pontiacs and more on the scale of powerplants Pontiac owners have come to expect under their hood. I owned a 97 T/A with the Gen 2 LT1 engine and it was really not the engine with a power level I expect to be in a performance Pontiac. My 05 GTO of course has the Gen 3 LS2 400 hp/ 400 lb.ft. torque engine and it is so much better all around than the LT1 in the 97 T/A I previously owned. Anyone that excludes these cars because they thought Pontiac died in 1981 is shortchanging themselves, I can't conceive driving a honda, toyota, or whatever you use as a daily driver over one of these cars because you believe they're not real Pontiacs. Except in the winter my 05 GTO is my daily driver.

They don't have a Stratostreak engine under the hood, however it is a true GM corporate engine designed with good carryover ideas from all of the previous division engines rolled into one. Thats what it is. What it isn't, is a SBC.

[lugnutt]

So, if you have an LS1 motor. You bye a LSX block and put aftermarket crank it and aftermarket heads everyone still considers it an LS1! I don't understand the big deal!

[Tom Vaught]

The Chebby Gurus will specifically tell you whether they have a LS-1, a LS-3, or a LS-X configuration engine.

Tom Vaught